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Remembered Today:

Help Please?


Dazscuba

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I am looking at the following gent

 

TS 604 Ernest Callis, HMT Viola 

born in Hull 10/10/1884

Enlisted 8th Sept 1914

Discharged 1st Feb 1915

 

on his naval record states his claim was forfeited  for desertion. It also states he died Feb 1915.

 

can anybody help me please with

1) where it would show his desertion and dates?

2) can anybody find what date he died?

3) where he is buried?

4) if deserted why did he get his medals?

 

Ancestry.co.uk

 

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National Archives

902F4F1E-78EA-422C-B6A2-6A5904A23E64.jpeg.0d7c7ab60c49f01a9f05dab60f41a17a.jpeg

 

 

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On the civil records side there is no likely birth for an Ernest Callis in Yorkshire that would tie in with that birthdate. Even though you had 42 days after the event to register the birth, for a child born 10th October 1884 that period would all fall with the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1884.

 

The  nearest thing to a match was the birth of an Ernest Callis registered in the Hull District in the October to December quarter to 1882 - could he possibly have lied about his age to join up? The mothers' maiden name was Burton. Most likely marriage of parents was that of a John Richard Callis to an Emily Burton recorded in the Sculcoates District of Yorkshire in Q4 1878.

 

Ernest (1891, aged 8) and Earnest (1901, aged 18) appears on the census - by the latter mother Emily is widowed. Those ages would be more reflective of an 1882 birth than an 1884 one. There was no candidate on the census record for an Ernest born Yorkshire circa 1884.

 

I can't see the older Ernest on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, but he could well have been at sea.

 

I couldn't see a likely death in England & Wales, but noted there was a death of an Ernest Callis serving with the East Yorkshire Regiment in the G.R.O.'s index of armed forces deaths for 1916.

 

A check of CWGC shows that he was aged 34, when he died on the 13th July 1916 serving with "C" Coy, 4th Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment - so born circa 1882.

I believe the East Yorkshire Regiment recruited heavilly in the Hull area.

The additional information on CWGC is that he was "Father of Charlotte E. Callis, of 19, St. Luke's Avenue, Pease St., Hull."

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/94979/callis,-ernest/

Soldiers died in the Great War shows him as Killed in Action and born & enlisted Hull.

His Medal Index Card shows him in receipt of only the Victory Medal & the British War Medal, so didn't enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916. So an air gap from the time he deserted. I couldn't find any Service records for him. Suspect he deserted February 1915 - a near number search for 4833 with the East Yorkshire Regiment Territorials may narrow down when he enlisted.

 

It would possibly explain why the R.N.R. might have had his medals re-instated, although in this case it might have led to a duplication. Could be worthwhile checking out the Army Service Medal Roll on Ancestry in case there is a note there which didn't make it on to the MiC.

 

There is possibly a pension ledger for the soldier on Ancestry.

 

I could not see a likely marriage for Ernest in England & Wales, but the birth of a Charlotte Elizabeth Challis, mothers' maiden name Backhouse, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Hull District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1903. The 7 year old Charlotte Challis, born Hull, was recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales living at 59 St Luke Street, Hull. This was the household of her widowed paternal grandmother, Emily Callis. Also in the household is an unmarried domestic servant, Martha Backhouse, aged 29 and born Hull.

 

So could all be a giant co-incidence, but if not and the sailor and the soldier are the same individual, then he deserted to go to war.

He lies buried at La Laiterie Military Cemetery in Flanders.

 

Hope that is not a red herring,

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited by PRC
Typo
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Peter thank you for such  descriptive information on him.

His navy record shows died  Feb 1915 but maybe the family just said that to get out of the navy and join the army. Although would the navy have not needed a death CERT??

 

I did see there was one Ernest Callis that died in 1916 as part of East York’s Reg. I also saw on one of the family trees that it showed his naval record and then him dying as part of EYR. Thought that may have been a red herring but you never know. 

 

Again thanks for all the info

 

Darren 

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42 minutes ago, PRC said:

It would possibly explain why the R.N.R. might have had his medals re-instated,

Where does it state that the Admiralty "re-instated" his naval medals? His RNR record shows thart his medals were forfeited for desertion and the RNR medal roll confirms this:  F = Forfeited R = RUN (Desertion)

 

1 hour ago, Dazscuba said:

his naval record states his claim was forfeited  for desertion. It also states he died Feb 1915.

"Claim forfeited" refers not to medals but to Naval Prize Monety due to the crew of VIOLA.

 

Nor can I find this statement in his RNR record. It states that he deserted From HMS ZARIA (VIOLA) at Orkney 1 Feb 1915 and was finally discharged as an unrecovered deserter in December.

Edited by horatio2
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1 hour ago, Dazscuba said:

if deserted why did he get his medals?

 

6 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Where does it state that the Admiralty "re-instated" his naval medals? His RNR record shows thart his medals were forfeited for desertion and the RNR medal roll confirms this:  F = Forfeited R = RUN (Desertion)

 

Apologies - not an area where I have any great knowledge and no visibility of the record, so took the original statement at face value.

 

7 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

It states that he deserted From HMS ZARIA (VIOLA) at Orkney 1 Feb 1915 and was finally discharged as an unrecovered deserter in December.

 

In your experience would someone serving in another branch of the armed forces be likely to be treated as "an unrecovered deserter" ?

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Gents thanks for above. 

 

Peter I have found a newspaper article stating the death of Ernest Callis and his wife being Mrs M E Callis so that could tie in with what you said re Martha.

 

it does show that someone tried to claim his medals (navy record) in 1925 and that when they were refused for desertion. I can now see at the side of “Run “ this may not say dead but something like “Dec?? 1915, Def? 1915” my mistake sorry

 

i am not great with Navy records only my second one. Everyday is a day for learning..

 

thanks again 

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I am assuming that this Viola is the famous Viola currently languishing in South Georgia?

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8 hours ago, Dazscuba said:

it does show that someone tried to claim his medals (navy record) in 1925

I still cannot find this in his RNR record.

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

In your experience would someone serving in another branch of the armed forces be likely to be treated as "an unrecovered deserter" ?

My understanding is that a deserter should be transferred back to his original service unless that service did not want him back. In this case I have seen no evidence in his RNR record that the Admiralty were notified by the Army that their deserter was in Army hands. Moreover, I think that, in reality, there was a high probability that a naval deserter would not be recognised as such by the Army, unless the man himself confessed.

 

I think Peter's in-depth research has proved that the EYR casualty of 1916 and the RNR rating are the same man, the one anomaly being the 1884 d.o.b. in the RNR record. This may be a clerical error as I can see no point in a 32 year-old pretending to be only 30. Apart from that the names and addessses all match.

 

1 hour ago, Hyacinth1326 said:

I am assuming that this Viola is the famous Viola currently languishing in South Georgia?

Correct.

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Yes the famous Viola is correct, I have one of the crews medals (Henry Calverts) and am researching it as much as possible( Viola & crew) I have the book by Robb Robinson  and got as much info from the NA/ Ancestry as possible 

I just came across a small paper clipping yesterday for Hull Daily Mail from a Mr E Callis on the Viola. So that took me to this 

thanks again for all your help appreciated 

D

Edited by Dazscuba
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Horatio2

    I have sent you a message with the medals forfeit as don’t want to put too many on here.

Darren 

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I am sure Robb would be interested to learn of this man.  It is a very interesting story

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Yes will contact Robb later today 

cheers

Edited by Dazscuba
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