Identity of badges collected in Italy, mostly

[dbe]

I have a thread on another forum about Pte. Walter Chettleburgh, 38159 Suffolk Regiment who served in Italy, a thread that has proven most helpful and friendly. Among my GF's effects were a collection of badges he acquired during his war service. These have been kept in an old cigar box for many years and now, as part of my research into his war service, I am trying to identity the regiments from which they came. I thought that this forum might be more appropriate for that purpose. I attach three plates of the badges below and what I have gleaned so far from the web, without being absolutely certain of my  choices, not being military.  I wonder if anyone can help me in this identification process.

Many thanks in advance for all help offered.

Plate 1

Top row from left:

i)                    Uncertain possibly Warwickshire or Bedfordshire Regiment?

ii)                   Seaforth Highlanders

iii)                 Uncertain – Cambridgeshire, Suffolk, other??

Bottom row from left:

i)                    South Staffs

ii)                   Civilian Badge for those working in reserved/key occupations – has number 49777

iii)                 Royal Berkshire Regiment

 

Plate 2

Top row from left:

i)                    Royal Munster Fusiliers?

ii)                   Queen’s Rifle Volunteer Brigade?

iii)                 Royal Scots Fusiliers

 

Bottom row from left:

i)                    Very uncertain but possibly Suffolk Regiment. Has number 233

ii)                   As above but with number 2015

 

Plate 3

From left:

i)                    Oxfordshire or Oxford and Bucks?

ii)                   Uncertain but possible Royal Military College Sandhurst

/David

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, dbe said:

I have a thread on another forum about Pte. Walter Chettleburgh, 38159 Suffolk Regiment who served in Italy, a thread that has proven most helpful and friendly. Among my GF's effects were a collection of badges he acquired during his war service. These have been kept in an old cigar box for many years and now, as part of my research into his war service, I am trying to identity the regiments from which they came. I thought that this forum might be more appropriate for that purpose. I attach three plates of the badges below and what I have gleaned so far from the web, without being absolutely certain of my  choices, not being military.  I wonder if anyone can help me in this identification process.

Many thanks in advance for all help offered.

Plate 1

Top row from left:

i)                    Uncertain possibly Warwickshire or Bedfordshire Regiment?

Bedfordshire 

ii)                   Seaforth Highlanders
Agreed

iii)                 Uncertain – Cambridgeshire, Suffolk, other??

Cambridgeshire

Bottom row from left:

i)                    South Staffs

Agreed

ii)                   Civilian Badge for those working in reserved/key occupations – has number 49777

iii)                 Royal Berkshire Regiment

Royal Marines

 

Plate 2

Top row from left:

i)                    Royal Munster Fusiliers?

Agreed

ii)                   Queen’s Rifle Volunteer Brigade?
Need a better photo but yes looks like an Irish militia regiment of that name.

iii)                 Royal Scots Fusiliers

Agreed

 

Bottom row from left:

i)                    Very uncertain but possibly Suffolk Regiment. Has number 233

Unfamiliar, but the number suggests a fellowship Lodge badge of some kind.

ii)                   As above but with number 2015

 As above

Plate 3

From left:

i)                    Oxfordshire or Oxford and Bucks?

Oxfordshire Light Infantry helmet plate centre

ii)                   Uncertain but possible Royal Military College Sandhurst

/David

Probably Sandhurst but requires checking and confirmation 

 

 

Comments highlighted above.

[CorporalPunishment]

Badge 3 in the top row is a collar badge of the King's Own Borderers, later the King's Own Scottish Borderers (1887). Badge 1 in the top row is, I believe, a collar badge of the Hertfordshire Constabulary.  Pete.

[horatio2]

Plate 1, Bottom Row iii is not Royal Marines - Wreath + dragon + "China".  Poss Border Regt collar badge???

[CorporalPunishment]

The two numbered shield badges are City of Norwich fire guards badges of the Great War.  Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Plate 1, Bottom Row iii is not Royal Marines - Wreath + dragon + "China".  Poss Border Regt collar badge???

Good spot horatio2.  I should have looked more closely.

 

28 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The two numbered shield badges are City of Norwich fire guards badges of the Great War.  Pete.

Excellent ID Pete, I’ve never heard of such badges before.  Do you collect non-military badges?

Edited 13 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Badge 3 in the top row is a collar badge of the King's Own Borderers, later the King's Own Scottish Borderers (1887). Badge 1 in the top row is, I believe, a collar badge of the Hertfordshire Constabulary.  Pete.

Makes sense, good IDs.  The Edinburgh castle seems obvious now and those pesky Harts were used by several Counties civil, as well as military institutions.  Beds, Harts, Bucks and Berks used them as symbols that entered the local institutional iconography via the militia usually.

Edited 13 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Good spot horatio2.  I should have looked more closely.

 

Excellent ID Pete, I’ve never heard of such badges before.  Do you collect non-military badges?

I used to collect British military badges but the only civilian badges I ever collected, don't laugh, were old British tramways uniform badges. Those days are long gone now.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I used to collect British military badges but the only civilian badges I ever collected, don't laugh, were old British tramways uniform badges. Those days are long gone now.   Pete.

It’s a much more expensive hobby since the internet, that’s for sure.  I stopped years ago too.  Nowadays I’d recommend collecting collar badges, as the repro market are uninterested in them.  
I’d certainly never heard of those fire watcher badges before.  I wonder how many cities did the same.

Edited 13 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s a much more expensive hobby since the internet, that’s for sure.  I stopped years ago too.  Nowadays I’d recommend collecting collar badges, as the repro market are uninterested in them.  
I’d certainly never heard of those fire watcher badges before.  I wonder how many cities did the same.

I've just checked out the Norwich badges on the B&CMBF albums and member "Norfolk Regt. Man" refers to them as being for the Norwich Civilian Emergency Corps so I stand corrected. I assume that fire watching was part of their duties though.  Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I've just checked out the Norwich badges on the B&CMBF albums and member "Norfolk Regt. Man" refers to them as being for the Norwich Civilian Emergency Corps so I stand corrected. I assume that fire watching was part of their duties though.  Pete.

Yes it sounds a bit like the Civil Defence Corps post WW2.  Very interesting to know that such obscure organisations had special badges that seem unusually well made.

Edited 13 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

23 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it sounds a bit like the Civil Defence Corps post WW2.  Very interesting to know that such obscure organisations had special badges that seem unusually well made.

Civic pride. 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Civic pride. 

Yes and unlike what is so often foisted on the military....no expense spared.

[dbe]

This is a really fantastic website with a font of knowledge. Thank all you so far for your contributions.

It was good to see that some of my "guesses" were correct, despite my lack of a military background.

I do have a couple of queries though. I wasn't quite sure which regiment had the wreath + dragon + China device. Could you please clarify?

Secondly, I am still unsure of the 'Hart' device. In browsing the net I have noticed that differences in the use of this emblem derive from the shape and poise of the antlers and the stance of the hart with regard to foreleg and standing/lying. If it is the Hertfordshire police badge, then I do have a problem relating it to my GF's collection.

Frogsmile also requested a better photograph of what I believe is the Queen's Rifle Volunteer Brigade-- an Edinburgh regiment? I attach a better photo.

 

Many thanks for drawing my attention to the Norwich Civilian Emergency Corps. According to Stephen Browning in Norwich in the Great War, this 'Corps' was established by order of the local council as part of the work of the Local Emergency Committee designed to act in the event of an invasion. This was a not unimportant consideration at the beginning of the war. The Corps was established in 1914 and originally consisted of 1200 people (I have number 233 and 2015 which suggest an early and late recruitment) The purpose of the Corps was (under the instruction of special constables) to destroy or remove horses, foodstuffs, cattle, boats and any other items of possible use to the enemy. A photograph of the Corps on parade as been added by AdnamsGirl to the Norfolkbroadsnetwork forum in September 2014 and the Diss Express had an article an picture in a January 22 1915 edition, which I have not accessed yet. The badges look flashy rather than being of high quality. 

 

I should explain that one of the reasons for identifying these badges is to try and elicit the various movements of my GF during the war as his service records seem unavailable and he left little behind to help. I am assuming that if I can relate these badges and regiments to a set of postcards sent by my GF and the likely locations of his unit in the Italian theatre of war, then I can possibly work out where he would have been stationed at various times.  I believe he was one of the Lines of Communications troops serving with 1st (Reserve) Garrison Battalion Suffolk Regiment-- apparently they had one or two companies in France and the Mediterranean as LoC.

 

Once again many thanks for your help and expertise. It is most appreciated and welcome.

David

[FROGSMILE]

The Border Regiment (Cumberland and Westmorland) collar badge was for a period a dome with embossed China Dragon surrounded by a laurel wreath and at first glance it looked very like the famous globe and laurels of the Royal Marines.  The Border Regiment changed its collar badge a few times and eventually settled on a miniature version of its attractive cap badge, but without the crown at top.  
 

The Queens Rifle Volunteer Brigade ( 1st City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Corps ) formed in 1859 ( known as the the Queens Rifle Volunteer Brigade The Royal Scots from 1888).

In 1908 it became the 4th and 5th ( Queens Edinburgh Rifles ) Battalions of the Royal Scots - Territorial Force.

 

The badge that you have was worn on the glengarry cap, but ceased use after the TF was formed in 1908. You have the relatively rare version worn during Edward VII’s reign.

 

 I enclose images of Hertfordshire Constabulary collar badges for you to compare.
 

Edited 14 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

I think the Border Regiment badge is one of those sweetheart brooches that were made using regimental buttons and of which there are plenty around.  Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I think the Border Regiment badge is one of those sweetheart brooches that were made using regimental buttons and of which there are plenty around.  Pete.

It does seem well made.  It’s missing the scrolls and also has just three instead of the more usual four honours on the top arm of the cross.

 

Edited 14 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[dbe]

Thank you all for contributing to this thread. A number of issues are now much clearer.

I see I have a collection with:

i) civilian badges from the early years of the war- possibly before my GF and GU were conscripted.

ii) two badges from Scottish regiments on the Western Front, both in action in the Ypres salient in 1917- it is possible that my GF was sent to France first with an LoC company

iii) six badges of regiments on service in Italy from various sectors of the front

iv) three badges that I need to check on- Hertfordshire Constabulary, Queen's Rifle Volunteer Brigade and Royal Military College Sandhurst.

 

I agree the Hart badge is very much the same as that of the Hertfordshire Constabulary, it's just a question of fitting it in with my GF's war service

The Queen's Rifle Volunteer Brigade is also interesting as it would seem to lie outside GF's war service and also later than his older brother's service in SA.

 

So more research in progress, but an interesting (hi)story developing.

Thank you for your help.

/David 

[steve fuller]

The Hart badge was worn on the collars of Bedfordshire Regiment soldiers and the 1st Battalion were in Northern Italy from December 1917 to March 1918, if it helps

 

Edit; the straight front legs may point to the pre 1908 3rd Volunteer Battalion (later the 5th Territorial Battalion). Possibly the 1st V.B., which became the Hertfordshire Regiment (T.F.) from 1908 although the neck is not right on the surface but the base looks more appropriate

 

Some alternatives attached for comparison 

Edited 18 July , 2020 by steve fuller
additional detail

[dbe]

Hi Steve,

Thank you for your contribution. Looking at your page of different badges connected to the Bedfordshire Regiment and comparing them with my original, It looks almost exactly like the 1st (Hertfordshire) V.B., though the antlers on mine  are a little more open, and the neck not exactly the same, as you point out.

Was the 1st V.B. in Italy as part of the Bedfords or were the Hertfordshires a separate regiment?

 

Certainly, the fact  that the 1st Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment were in Italy (XI Corps, 5th Division 15 Brigade) in the same Corps and Division as the King's Own Scottish Borderers and the Royal Norfolk Regiment, badges of both of which are part of the collection, would seem to indicate that it is a collar badge of the Bedfordshire Regiment.

 

I am hoping that by aligning identification of the badge collection with postcards sent while on war service, together with whatever other information I can find, I will be able to reconstruct and document my grandfather's war. 

 

This has been a very useful contribution, resolving at least one problem. Once again many thanks for your help.

/David

[FROGSMILE]

The 1st (Hertfordshire) VB and 3rd VB of the Bedfordshire Regiment were pre-1908 units that subsequently became TF Battalions of the same regiment with sequential numbers coming after the regular and special reserve units.  Consequently VB titles would not have been worn overseas such as in Italy, although it seems possible that a former member of a VB might have retained Hart collar badges as keepsakes.  Sometimes old badges were affixed to the leather or cotton web belts that were popular with soldiers for securing their trousers when braces had been shrugged off the shoulders.

Edited 18 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[dbe]

Thanks Frogsmile for the clarification. I was afraid that this might be the case, i.e. that the the badges of these units would not have been worn officially during WWI as these units no longer existed. Having checked the Long Long Trail and a couple of other sites this seemed to be the case. However, as you point out, soldiers may have kept them as keepsakes. It may also be possible that the badges were not all from front-line troops, but from older soldiers who were assigned to Lines of Communications duties. 

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, dbe said:

Thanks Frogsmile for the clarification. I was afraid that this might be the case, i.e. that the the badges of these units would not have been worn officially during WWI as these units no longer existed. Having checked the Long Long Trail and a couple of other sites this seemed to be the case. However, as you point out, soldiers may have kept them as keepsakes. It may also be possible that the badges were not all from front-line troops, but from older soldiers who were assigned to Lines of Communications duties. 

Yes, I think that sums the situation up perfectly.

[steve fuller]

On 18/07/2020 at 09:46, dbe said:

This has been a very useful contribution, resolving at least one problem. Once again many thanks for your help.

/David

Pleasure David

 

Presumably he picked them up along the way as reminders of his time in Italy, driven by fond or proud memories at the time? Cap badges / insignia have always been a favourite for collectors, whether in the modern sense of the word or just to remember a passing moment

[dbe]

Thanks so far to all who have helped. I have a few other badges/insignia that I am trying to determine.

I believe the RMC badge I have is a forage cap badge for instructors at the Royal Military College Sandhurst.

An embroidered badge of the Norfolk Regiment could be the same.

I also have a crown on a red background-- officer's insignia?

 

Any suggestions received with appreciation

David