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Abbreviation Help Required


SteveE

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Pals

 

I’m in need of some assistance.  I’m trying to make sense of a, somewhat cryptic, personal diary entry and am struggling with an abbreviation/acronym which I’m hoping somebody might be able to decipher for me?

The text is “attached to No.4 Plattoon Sgt Mansfield R C P in Camp”.  The abbreviation I’m struggling with is the “R C P” part, there is obviously something after each letter and I don’t know whether it relates to Sergt. Mansfield or not, punctuation wasn’t the diarists greatest asset.

Any and all ideas will be greatfully received.

 

Steve

 

 

img_0788.jpg

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I can only see Rn as his attempt at abbreviating Rifleman and similarly Prt as Private. No idea on the middle one! Maybe a wider shot would give some context?

I think Sgt Mansfield is the platoon sergeant - it was not uncommon to describe a platoon by its number and its sergeant.

Edited by PhilB
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Possibly Regimental Camp Police, or Provost, meaning acting as the Provost Sergeant when in camp (under canvas).  
 

Camp Police was a term used at the time rather like Garrison Police was.  To be appointed as Provost Sergeant on a temporary basis was a common role for more experienced and older Sergeants.
 

I’m not saying that is definite, but the context would fit.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Phil

 

Thanks for your thoughts, a wider shot won’t help as that’s it, there is nothing else apart from the edges of the page.

 

Assuming that Sgt. Mansfield is No.4 platoon sergeant as you suggest then it’s likely that the “R C P in Camp” is a separate, unrelated, entry.  I see it as “Rn Ctn Prt in Camp” but can’t for the life of me make any sense of that.  For a bit of context this is a soldier in the 25th Royal Fusiliers in camp in East Africa.

 

Steve

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Frogsmile

 

Thanks for that thought too, I had wondered if it Was Rn (Regimental) and Prt (Provost) but the Ctn, if it is that, I can’t make anything sensible fit.....

 

Steve

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I read the middle 'word' as Ctic.  Not that that means anything helpful to me.

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19 minutes ago, SteveE said:

Frogsmile

 

Thanks for that thought too, I had wondered if it Was Rn (Regimental) and Prt (Provost) but the Ctn, if it is that, I can’t make anything sensible fit.....

 

Steve


It was common at that time for final letters to be superscribed at top right corner and in that context I would read Rn as ‘return’.  Ctn is more difficult, but would read in typical military parlance as carton.  The last abbreviation with the ‘P’ I cannot understand (read) what the superscription part of the lettering is.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I may need specsavers, but my first though was Rn Ctre hut, (I'd say Cut but then the capital "C" would be unlike the other two examples).

 

Would Recreation Centre hut be relevant, if that was actually the quarters allocated to Sergeant Mansfields' Platoon? Would such a facility be known as that during the Great War era.

 

Whats needed is more examples of letter formation for this individual.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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I tried adjusting the contrast a little if it helps?

enhanced.jpg.6cea3d3783b61b3662407a2f373a0251.jpg

 

For what it is worth I don't think the last word  starts with a P - compare the shape of the P and the way it is written and curves in Plattoon (sic)

It could be an H (Hut?) as suggested above

Chris

 

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R[ecreatio]n C[en]tre ?

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Yes I think you’ve probably cracked it between you, Recreation Centre Hut is certainly familiar barracks terminology, and has been for many years now.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I can see Rn as Recreation and Ctn as Centre or Canteen but, try as I might, I can’t see the last word as hut!

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Ctn - Cantonment? Click here for background. Discrete urban areas in Africa derived from military barracks.

Acknown

Edited by Acknown
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Good these arn't they ......

 

I read.  "Attached to No 4 Plattoon Sgt Mansfield RCto, but in Camp"  

 

Havn't got a clue what RCto could be.

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5 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

"Attached to No 4 Plattoon Sgt Mansfield RCto, but in Camp"

 

"but"  with a lower case "b" is likely to be a word that will crop up elsewhere in the diary, hence me saying we need more samples of the handwriting.

 

"hut" for me was driven for me in part by my suggestion for the previous two words, (recreation centre), in part because it didn't tally with the capital "C" in Camp and the "C" that is believed to be the middle initial - but even they are not consistant, and finally in part because he seems to like his flourishes.

 

So even though the suggested "h" in hut doesn't match with the "h" in attached, it's followed in that word by an "e". The middle letter in the mystery three letter word is also half-height lower case and so should follow a similar shape creation, plus is almost certainly a vowel, which then pretty much comes down to "i" or "u" - nothing to indicate that last word is an abbreviation.

 

Intriguing :)

 

Peter

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Right - I've downloaded the 25th RF War Diary!

Steve - can you tell us the date of the diary entry?

Acknown

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4 minutes ago, Acknown said:

I've downloaded the 25th RF War Diary!

Too quick - it's only four pages! Fascinating reading though. It describes an operation in Dec 16/Jan 17 against German forces in modern Tanzania. It would still be useful to have the date.

Acknown

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2 hours ago, Acknown said:

Ctn - Cantonment? Click here for background. Discrete urban areas in Africa derived from military barracks.

Acknown


Cantonment as a term is much more associated with India and used there (still) in the sense that we use garrison.  I imagine it has French origins and might well have carried on from France’s original colony there.


For military abbreviations of the time the superscribed letters usually, but not always related to the last one, or two letters of the full word, which is why I thought Ctn might refer to carton.  A carton of those times was a stout cardboard box containing 20-rounds (4-clips) of .303 ammunition. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 hour ago, Acknown said:

I've downloaded the 25th RF War Diary!

If this is 13378 Sgt Charles James Mansfield, who died of pneumonia (Fold3 records via WFA) on 21 Aug 16 aged 32, the WD won't help. He is interred in Dar es Salaam Cemetery.

Acknown

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Thanks to you all for the additional comments and apologies for not replying sooner, all of your assistance is much appreciated.

 

2 hours ago, Acknown said:

Right - I've downloaded the 25th RF War Diary!

Steve - can you tell us the date of the diary entry?

Acknown

 

Date is October 31st 1915 and the Battalion War Diary won't help "Usual Parades, Picquets, Patrols and Camp Duties" so nothing it would seem 'out of the ordinary'

 

2 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Can we see the whole page for context please?

 

TR

Whole page is attached, not much more help I'm afraid and, as I'm not the diary owner, this is all I have permission to show to try to work out what that abbreviation is, sorry PRC that I can't give you what you're after......

 

Steve

IMG_1722.JPG

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For what’s it’s worth (addictive isn’t it) I think that Pete, seaJane and Tullochard got this between them in posts # 8, 10, and 14, and that it’s intended to read Recreation Centre, but in camp, as a short hand annotation meaning troops are permitted to go to the recreation centre (when stood down) but must remain in camp.

It then follows that there was to be a campfire concert in camp.  All-in-all it seems a typical attempt to give troops some free time after the training day, but retain control by keeping them in camp.  It’s typical of a British military camp of that time (and subsequently for that matter).

Edited by FROGSMILE
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3 hours ago, PRC said:

"but"  with a lower case "b" is likely to be a word that will crop up elsewhere in the diary, hence me saying we need more samples of the handwriting.

Going back through the diary the word "but" does crop up elsewhere in a few other places, none have quite the looped 'flourish' as that particular entry but there is one example where he has slightly looped the top of the b and the formation of the rest of the word is consistent with that above so I think it is quite probably Rn. Ctn. "but in camp".  I don't think I would ever have seen that as 'but'....

 

Steve

Edited by SteveE
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1 hour ago, SteveE said:

Whole page is attached, not much more help I'm afraid and, as I'm not the diary owner, this is all I have permission to show to try to work out what that abbreviation is, sorry PRC that I can't give you what you're after......

 

No worries - hope we've got there in the end.  I suspect that was how the relevant place was signposted on camp and so he just wrote down what he saw.

Whether the middle word is Ctre or Ctn, Centre of Canteen, it's likely to amount to the same thing, the rationale being well stated by Frogsmile.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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I too am certain it says  "Attached to No 4 Plattoon Sgt Mansfield Rn Ctre but in Camp"  

 

Now we have it in context with "CampFire Concert in Camp" it's most likely to be Recreation Centre.

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