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Remembered Today:

Private 10318 Robert Wyeth Blackman, 2nd Battalion, Liverpool Regiment


HTSCF Fareham

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Looking for a bit of help to establish the exact location if possible (Lahore?) and circumstances of the above, who was KiA on 03/10/1918. He is commemorated at Karachi 1914-1918 War Memorial, Sindh, Pakistan.

 

I don't know if it's just me, but TNA seems to be down?

 

Thanks!

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Soldiers Died in the Great War just shows him as "Died", not Killed in Action, which seems to suggest either ill-health or an accident. His entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects might possibly give a bit more information on that score. There is no obvious Soldiers Will or Civil Probate for him.

 

The Concentration Report attached to his CWGC webpage shows him in Grave East D-39 in Lahore Cantonment North Cemetery.

 

With TNA I'm finding I can get to the search the catalogue screen or the research guides, but as soon as I try a search and hit enter I get, (on Mozilla), a "the connection can't be made" notice. So it looks like the website is up but the underlying databases it goes away and looks up are offline.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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I suspect he died of disease rather than KIA. 
http://lib.militaryarchive.co.uk/library/infantry-histories/library/The-History-of-the-Kings-Regiment-Liverpool-1914-1919-Volume-III/files/assets/basic-html/page235.html

gives the 2nd Bn deaths. All show d died rather than k killed.

Pension cards shows

Beck d 24/10/18 Pneumonia

Stobbs d 31/10/18 Pneumonia 

Disley d 4/11/18 Pneumonia

Smith d 15-16/11/18 Flu and Pneumonia

 

Effects record says Blackman died Lahore.

 

 

 

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TNA seems to be up and running again okay, but I cannot see the War Diary for 2nd Battalion.

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23 minutes ago, HTSCF Fareham said:

TNA seems to be up and running again okay, but I cannot see the War Diary for 2nd Battalion.

 

As it remained in India throughout the war it would have not been required to maintain one.

 

2nd Battalion
August 1914 : in Peshawar in India. Part of 1st (Peshawar) Brigade, 1st (Peshawar) Division of Indian Army. Remained in India throughout the war. Moved to 10th Brigade in 4th (Quetta) Division December 1917.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-liverpool-regiment/

 

As it was optional some units did have a diary, and some started when they were on notice to move to a Theatre of War and then stopped when this was cancelled, but the overwhelming majority as far as I can tell never even started. As they came under the India Office, there may be some paperwork held at the British Library, but unlikely to tell you anything about the death of this man. I suspect local newspapers will be your best bet.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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27 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

As it remained in India throughout the war it would have not been required to maintain one.

 

2nd Battalion
August 1914 : in Peshawar in India. Part of 1st (Peshawar) Brigade, 1st (Peshawar) Division of Indian Army. Remained in India throughout the war. Moved to 10th Brigade in 4th (Quetta) Division December 1917.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-liverpool-regiment/

 

As it was optional some units did have a diary, and some started when they were on notice to move to a Theatre of War and then stopped when this was cancelled, but the overwhelming majority as far as I can tell never even started. As they came under the India Office, there may be some paperwork held at the British Library, but unlikely to tell you anything about the death of this man. I suspect local newspapers will be your best bet.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Thanks, Peter

 

I'd seen the bit on the LLT, but was wondering if I'd missed anything.

 

I'll give the papers a check, but as my chap was illegitimate, I'm not holding out much luck. Such a tragic shame. At least he is mentioned on the Fareham War Memorial, but I was really hoping to expand his story a little.

 

Thanks, Steve

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28 minutes ago, HTSCF Fareham said:

 

I'll give the papers a check, but as my chap was illegitimate, I'm not holding out much luck. Such a tragic shame. At least he is mentioned on the Fareham War Memorial, but I was really hoping to expand his story a little.

 

 

Seems like there might be a bit more to tell. Obviously someone put his name forward for inclusion on the Fareham War Memorial, so someone still cared about him. While that could have been a friend,  former teacher, religious minister, etc, the bigger likelihood was family, even if adopted. And on that basis it means someone might want to see his death reported in a local paper - as far as I can tell most of the article were submitted by family or local freelancers and not as a result of investigative journalism:)

 

As I don't have subscription access to Ancestry I can't see who got the balance of his pay and his War Gratuity - names there would help with checking census details. Nor can I see his Service Medal Roll to check that medals were issued.

 

But as a long-stop I took a look at his Medal Index Card, expecting to see the award of a British War Medal, reflecting that he was in a Garrison role only during the Great War. Apologies if you've covered this already, but I see it actually shows him qualifying for the 1914/15 Star, the BWM and the Victory Medal, his first Theatre of War being (5G) 1 Asiatic in April 1915.

 

LLT tells me (5G) pre-1916 was Hejaz, and Wikipedia, (for what it's worth) has:-

 

Operations against the Mohmands, Bunerwals and Swatis in 1915

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The Operations against the Mohmands, Bunerwals and Swatis were carried out by the Indian Army during World War I. The first operation began at the start of 1915, with a raid by the Mohmand tribe near the Shabkadr Fort in Peshawar. In April operations continued against the Mohmands when 2,000 tribesmen attacked the troops of the 1st (Peshawar) Division and were defeated near Hafiz Kor.

 

The Operations against all three tribes (Mohmands, Bunerwals and Swatis) lasted between 17 August–28 October. These three tribes inhabit the northern half of the Peshawar district. Fighting began with the defeat of about 3,500 Bunerwals near Rustam on the 17 August, and ended with the rout of 3,000 Bajauris near the village of Wuch north of Chakdara. Another six small engagements were fought; the most important was on 5 September at Hafiz Kor, when 10,000 tribesmen were defeated.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_against_the_Mohmands,_Bunerwals_and_Swatis_in_1915

 

The source quoted by Wiki concentrates on the September action, which takes up the bottom half of the webpage that has been archived here https://web.archive.org/web/20071021032151/http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Brits_in_Caucasus/India_01.htm

 

A check of the MiC shows no indication that the medals were returned.

 

Hope that helps

Peter

 

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To answer your question Peter

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

I can't see who got the balance of his pay and his War Gratuity - names there would help with checking census details.

 

 

 

image.png.24c5d629e87532806b2ecb42ec1e193e.png

 

A very small piece from Soldier's Effects. Ancestry/Fold3

 

George

 

 

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Record of Effects (TNA records held on Ancestry) states that his effects were given to (I think - writing bad): 'Drs Maria, Elizabeth'. So daughters? No cause of death given, but Lahore listed.

Acknown

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Maria Elizabeth Blackman was his mother and sole legatee.

 

I've had a peruse of BNA but haven't found anything.

 

He was born 31/10/1890 at Fareham, but was born before Maria got married, so am probably relying on a clue in his name as to whom the father actually was.

 

Steve

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2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

To answer your question Peter

 

image.png.24c5d629e87532806b2ecb42ec1e193e.png

 

A very small piece from Soldier's Effects. Ancestry/Fold3

 

Thank George - much appreciated.

 

I'm reading that as two words on the first line of the second column, both with the same first capital letter. So, (tentatively), "Mo. Maria Elizabeth".

 

3 hours ago, HTSCF Fareham said:

but as my chap was illegitimate

 

I thought there was some quirk of the family history that I was missing here with the family of the widow Maria Elizabeth Blackman, (head of the household at at 16 Portland Street, Fareham on the 1891 Census of England & Wales and 13 Portland Street, Fareham in the 1911 Census of England & Wales) but having looked a bit closer it's probably safer to close the door on that avenue of enquiry in a public forum!

 

Suffice it to say Robert wasn't living with her then. He would have been old enough from 1906 onwards to join the Army as a boy or 1908 as a man. Paul Nixon's Army Service number site shows that service number 10318 was issued by the Regular Army battalions of The King's (Liverpool Regiment) between:-

9923 joined on 25th April 1907
10477 joined on 9th November 1908

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/kings-liverpool-regiment-1st-2nd.html

 

As Robert doesn't appear to be recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales he was probably with the 1st Battalion who were then stationed at Fermoy, according to Hart's Annual Military List for 1911. As he would have been recorded on the 1911 Census of Ireland, he would not have been included in the England & Wales version. The scope of the latter did stretch to units in the Empire, so a man with the 2nd Battalion, said to be stationed at Subathu (for Lahore cantonment) in Hart's List, would show up there.The standard enlistment by this time was 3 years in the colours and 9 in reserve so another scenario that might come into play is if he was travelling between postings or returning to the UK for discharge to the Reserves.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

Edited by PRC
Typo
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1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

Thank George - much appreciated.

 

I'm reading that as two words on the first line of the second column, both with the same first capital letter. So, (tentatively), "Mo. Maria Elizabeth".

 

 

I thought there was some quirk of the family history that I was missing here with the family of the widow Maria Elizabeth Blackman, (head of the household at at 16 Portland Street, Fareham on the 1891 Census of England & Wales and 13 Portland Street, Fareham in the 1911 Census of England & Wales) but having looked a bit closer it's probably safer to close the door on that avenue of enquiry in a public forum!

 

Suffice it to say Robert wasn't living with her then. He would have been old enough from 1906 onwards to join the Army as a boy or 1908 as a man. Paul Nixon's Army Service number site shows that service number 10318 was issued by the Regular Army battalions of The King's (Liverpool Regiment) between:-

9923 joined on 25th April 1907
10477 joined on 9th November 1908

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/kings-liverpool-regiment-1st-2nd.html

 

As Robert doesn't appear to be recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales he was probably with the 1st Battalion who were then stationed at Fermoy, according to Hart's Annual Military List for 1911. As he would have been recorded on the 1911 Census of Ireland, he would not have been included in the England & Wales version. The scope of the latter did stretch to units in the Empire, so a man with the 2nd Battalion, said to be stationed at Subathu (for Lahore cantonment) in Hart's List, would show up there.The standard enlistment by this time was 3 years in the colours and 9 in reserve so another scenario that might come into play is if he was travelling between postings or returning to the UK for discharge to the Reserves.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this Peter.

 

Re the enlistment, I know that this was at Gosport. I tend to use the armyservicenumbers website as a cross reference for working out enrollment dates. Add in the gratuity, then checking other enlisments around the number for which records still survive. I haven't been able to tie him down any finer than your findings.

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