Gunner Sidney Nestor Thorowgood, L/26972 RFA

[MartyG]

I am trying to find out which Brigade my partner’s great uncle, L/26972 Gunner Sidney N. Thorowgood, might have served with. A forlorn hope I rather fear but you never know.

 

I have searched on Ancestry and unfortunately, unless I am doing something wrong on the search engine, I just cannot find any service records for him. His MIC, Medal Roll and Soldiers’ Effects are all there, but nothing else. It seems highly likely his records may be among those that did not survive.

 

My confusion comes from the CWGC website (he was killed on 10 April 1918). Their listing shows him as serving in D Battery 161 Brigade RFA. However, the accompanying Graves Registration Report Form clearly says “D/181 Bde. R.F.A”. 

 

I understand the “L” signifies “Local”. Sidney was a South East London lad, born in Camberwell and was living in Peckham at the time of the 1911 Census.

 

Probably an impossible ask without any actual service records.

 

Interestingly the Medal Roll says “VM/only Retd (1743 KR 1912) CRV 227 LB-dt 4/823 8136/Adt”, which I now know from the forum refers to Kings Regulations 1912 Para. 1743.

 

Whether that was a family issue at the time, we’ll never know, of course. It does seem a bit odd though to keep the BWM but not the Victory, unless the BWM was scrapped. He was not without family, unless there had been a falling out, as his Soldiers’ Effects entry indicates his mother signed for the money owed. Or perhaps his mother simply wanted nothing to do with the medals at all having lost her son...

[ss002d6252]

32 minutes ago, MartyG said:

 

My confusion comes from the CWGC website (he was killed on 10 April 1918). Their listing shows him as serving in D Battery 161 Brigade RFA. However, the accompanying Graves Registration Report Form clearly says “D/181 Bde. R.F.A”. 

The effects records were compiled separately and also shows D/181.

Craig

[David Porter]

The Soldiers' Effects register also says D/181, so I'd go with that. One problem you have is that L/26972 signifies joining 174th Brigade RFA at Deptford around May 27, 1915 (being in the Camberwell/Peckham area fits with this). There is no obvious connection between 174th Brigade RFA and 181st Brigade RFA so how and when the transfer occurred remains a mystery.

[Acknown]

The 181 Brigade RFA War Diary (TNA records held on Ancestry) records that on 10 Apr 18: 'D/181 had one 4.5 How burst - 2 men killed and two seriously injured'. One of these may have been Sidney. The Brigade HQ was at Wailly-Ficheux, with D/181 at R32a37 (Sunken Road); about 3 km SW of Wailly Orchard Cemetery.

Acknown

Edited 11 July , 2020 by Acknown

[clk]

Hi MartyG,

 

What was accepted as being his Will, may help to confirm. £1.50 for a low resolution B&W scan, which should arrive some days later as an email attachment. Link.

 

1 hour ago, Acknown said:

...on 10 Apr 18: 'D/181 had one 4.5 How burst - 2 men killed and two seriously injured'. One of these may have been Sidney. The Brigade HQ was at Wailly-Ficheux, with D/181 at R32a37 (Sunken Road); about 3 km SW of Wailly Orchard Cemetery.

 

The CWGC schedule shows:

Image sourced from the CWGC

 

42287 Melrose has service papers which confirm that he was in D/181 when he was KIA on 10.4.1918. So I wonder if for your man and the discrepancy with his 'front page' is some kind of data entry/reading/migration error. Might it be worth contacting the CWGC?

 

Regards

Chris

 

[MartyG]

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The effects records were compiled separately and also shows D/181.

Craig

I hadn’t spotted that Craig, thank you. It does all point to 181.

[MartyG]

5 hours ago, David Porter said:

The Soldiers' Effects register also says D/181, so I'd go with that. One problem you have is that L/26972 signifies joining 174th Brigade RFA at Deptford around May 27, 1915 (being in the Camberwell/Peckham area fits with this). There is no obvious connection between 174th Brigade RFA and 181st Brigade RFA so how and when the transfer occurred remains a mystery.

Indeed. As I said to Craig, I hadn’t even spotted the 181 on the Soldiers’ Effects Register. May 1915 would have had Sidney at 17 years old, given his age indicated on the 1901 and 1911 Census records. As you say, the how and when of his transfer will remain a mystery, but I shall enjoy finding out more about both the 174th and 181st Brigades.
 

Thank you David.

Edited 11 July , 2020 by MartyG

[MartyG]

4 hours ago, Acknown said:

The 181 Brigade RFA War Diary (TNA records held on Ancestry) records that on 10 Apr 18: 'D/181 had one 4.5 How burst - 2 men killed and two seriously injured'. One of these may have been Sidney. The Brigade HQ was at Wailly-Ficheux, with D/181 at R32a37 (Sunken Road); about 3 km SW of Wailly Orchard Cemetery.

Acknown

Wow, amazing to see this entry, thank you very much. My search skills on Ancestry are, indeed, somewhat lacking! I presume this means that there was an accident, that one of the Battery’s own shells exploded amongst them. Not a unique occurrence I’m sure, but how tragic that he lost his life to one of his own shells.

[RussT]

161 is a simple scanning error. It should be 181 as per his paper based entry attached to his record.

 

If you tell CWGC, they will simply change it to show 181 Bde.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[MartyG]

2 hours ago, clk said:

Hi MartyG,

 

What was accepted as being his Will, may help to confirm. £1.50 for a low resolution B&W scan, which should arrive some days later as an email attachment. Link.

 

 

The CWGC schedule shows:

Image sourced from the CWGC

 

42287 Melrose has service papers which confirm that he was in D/181 when he was KIA on 10.4.1918. So I wonder if for your man and the discrepancy with his 'front page' is some kind of data entry/reading/migration error. Might it be worth contacting the CWGC?

 

Regards

Chris

 

Many thanks Chris, I shall definitely have a look at his Will. I will also have a look at Gunner Melrose’s service papers, he was very possibly Sidney’s mate. The War Diary entry, the entry on the Graves Registration Report, Gunners Thorowgood and Melrose must surely be the two men killed in that 4.5 burst. 
 

[MartyG]

May I take this opportunity to thank you all for your replies and your truly excellent help, I certainly know much more than I knew earlier today, especially about his death. And I’d never have known that I could see his Will.
 

Your help has certainly confirmed to me that he was in 181st Brigade at the time he was killed and I shall contact the CWGC as Chris suggests.
 

Regards,

 

Martin

10 minutes ago, RussT said:

161 is a simple scanning error. It should be 181 as per his paper based entry attached to his record.

 

If you tell CWGC, they will simply change it to show 181 Bde.

 

Regards

 

Russ

Cheers Russ, I am going to do exactly that.

 

Martin

[clk]

Hi Martin,

 

I hope that these may be of use.

 

TNA search page

TNA Registration

Commander Royal Artillery (40 Division)

40 Division HQ

Map references

tmapper

British War Graves

 

Regards

Chris

[Acknown]

17 hours ago, Acknown said:

D/181 had one 4.5 How burst 

 

12 hours ago, MartyG said:

one of the Battery’s own shells exploded amongst them.

Marty,

I'm not sure that this means a shell exploded away from the gun. It might be that the gun itself exploded when it was fired. It seems that the 4.5 Howitzer (see here for a description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_4.5-inch_howitzer) was prone to such accidents.

This Forum thread is illuminating: 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/51531-what-killed-members-of-the-rga/. The matter-of-fact 181 Brigade RFA WD entry suggests that this was not an uncommon experience for them.

Acknown

Edited 12 July , 2020 by Acknown

[Matlock1418]

17 hours ago, MartyG said:

It does seem a bit odd though to keep the BWM but not the Victory, unless the BWM was scrapped.

It may be a case of tangled fingers - this does not seem quite right

It does seem that you believed the BWM may have been scrapped - and certainly I believe the more valuable for scrap

Alternatively it also was not unknown for medal groups to get split up amongst family members so that they could share in a little memory of him

And yet this is not what I read on the MIC/Medal Roll

17 hours ago, MartyG said:

Interestingly the Medal Roll says “VM/only Retd (1743 KR 1912) CRV 227 LB-dt 4/823 8136/Adt”, which I now know from the forum refers to Kings Regulations 1912 Para. 1743.

I think it looks like the VM was possibly returned [Retd] for adjustment [Adt] - I think.

What happened then and since to the medals is seemingly currently unknown by you.

 

You may be interested to know that there is a Pension Card thanks to the Western Front Association / Fold3 - it records little unfortunately however does indicate his dependant was Charles Augustus Thorowgood and that SNT was possibly alternatively recorded [at MoP and elsewhere (??)] as "THOROGOOD" which may be another spelling you might wish to explore https://www.fold3.com/image/669759302?terms=thorowgood,26972

Image courtesy of WFA / Fold3

:-) M

Edited 12 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
added image

[MartyG]

1 hour ago, clk said:

Hi Martin,

 

I hope that these may be of use.

 

Regards

Chris

Excellent stuff Chris, thank you so much for these.

Edited 12 July , 2020 by MartyG

[MartyG]

57 minutes ago, Acknown said:

 

Marty,

I'm not sure that this means a shell exploded away from the gun. It might be that the gun itself exploded when it was fired. It seems that the 4.5 Howitzer (see here for a description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_4.5-inch_howitzer) was prone to such accidents.

This Forum thread is illuminating: 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/51531-what-killed-members-of-the-rga/. The matter-of-fact 181 Brigade RFA WD entry suggests that this was not an uncommon experience for them.

Acknown

That certainly seems a more likely scenario, yes. Thanks again. I’m certainly in for some very interesting reading - and learning! 😀

[MartyG]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

You may be interested to know that there is a Pension Card thanks to the Western Front Association / Fold3 - it records little unfortunately however does indicate his dependant was Charles Augustus Thorowgood and that SNT was possibly alternatively recorded [at MoP and elsewhere (??)] as "THOROGOOD" which may be another spelling you might wish to explore https://www.fold3.com/image/669759302?terms=thorowgood,26972

Image courtesy of WFA / Fold3

:-) M

Marvellous research, thank you again! I had looked at the Thorogood spelling on Ancestry, funnily enough, but pretty sure it didn’t come up with anything more on Sidney. The Pension Card is a real bonus, I could not access this previously as I only have Ancestry membership, not Fold3. Without your help, though, I’d not have known it was on the WFA site. Learning all the time!
 

Charles Augustus Thorowgood is Sue’s, my partner’s, Great Great Grandfather.
 

Your thoughts re his medals are totally plausible. It would be great if the pair are still out there somewhere, I have set up name searches for them and, of course, his Memorial Plaque, on a few sites. Of course, if they do indeed still survive, it is also comforting to think that they may well be safely stowed away with a member of Sue’s family who we simply have no contact with or even know of. 

 

Your help, everyone’s help, with my query has been just outstanding, as I knew it would be. 
 

I cannot thank you and all the others here enough. 
 

Martin

[RussT]

As noted on the Pension Card above he does have an additional Card filed under the name Thorogood, which might have some additional details for you.

 

Here it is (courtesy of Fold3):

 

Regards

 

Russ

[MartyG]

51 minutes ago, RussT said:

As noted on the Pension Card above he does have an additional Card filed under the name Thorogood, which might have some additional details for you.

 

Here it is (courtesy of Fold3):

 

Regards

 

Russ

Clara Jemima Thorowgood, Sue’s Great Great Grandmother. Great stuff Russ, thanks for seeking that out for us, really appreciate your efforts.

 

 Martin 

[aim]

I note that the original posting and # 18 give the number L/26972, while # 14 just gives 26972.

 

However, in # 5 the number 26874 has been changed to 26974.

 

Room for some confusion here?

 

aim

[MartyG]

5 hours ago, aim said:

I note that the original posting and # 18 give the number L/26972, while # 14 just gives 26972.

 

However, in # 5 the number 26874 has been changed to 26974.

 

Room for some confusion here?

 

aim

I can see the “L” on the Pension Card in post no. 14, aim, just above the 26972. None of the records on CWGC show the “L”, but I did also wonder about that 26874/26974 anomaly, neither of them being correct. Human error I suppose. His MIC and Medal Roll entry both show his number as L/26972.

 

Martin

Edited 12 July , 2020 by MartyG

[Matlock1418]

7 hours ago, MartyG said:

As noted on the Pension Card above he does have an additional Card filed under the name Thorogood, which might have some additional details for you.

Had just found the Thorogood PC having originally missed it - and was going to let you know about it - but too late - beaten by RussT and yourself  by about 7 hours!!! ;-/

Note the THOROGOOD change was initialled 20.9.29 = why the change?

[seems about the same date as his father is recorded 13.9.29 as becoming the recipient of the pension - mother's death recorded as 31/1/27 it seems - did he spell, or had he taken to spelling, his surname differently?]

However in the meantime I did also find this when exploring the Thorowgood / Thorogood question:

At GRO - May be of interest or even muddy the waters = ???

	Name:	Mother's Maiden Surname
	THOROWGOOD, SIDNEY  NESTOR	JEFFERYS
	GRO Reference: 1898  J Quarter in CAMBERWELL  Volume 01D  Page 937
It is however not unknown for birth registrations and even birth certificates [which you may have or wish obtain] to end up with a different spelling than the person registering the birth knew, intended or even used. Enjoy! ;-) M

Edited 12 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
Expansion and hopefully clarification

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, MartyG said:

I can see the “L” on the Pension Card in post no. 14, aim, just above the 26972. None of the records on CWGC show the “L”, but I did also wonder about that 26874/26974 anomaly, neither of them being correct. Human error I suppose. His MIC and Medal Roll entry both show his number as L/26972.

Pre-fix letters of regimental numbers were/are commonly 'lost' for various reasons along the way, of which human error is one possibility, or alternatively presented with a gap, slash, full stop or hyphen in a wide range of documents = often better to now search, especially in search-engines, without using them

CWGC documents, such as GRRF and even headstones schedules etc., were essentially 'work in progress' [less so headstone schedules] - so it is not uncommon to see corrections differences and corrections from what is shown on the Graves Register and now their current on-line commemoration [even today changes are often ongoing and the old documents are left behind as research reveals more - even headstones can still sometimes get changed - that said CWGC do appear to have a tendency to prefer the 'served as name' and will need quite a lot of evidence for consideration/acceptance to change names]

:-) M

Edited 12 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
addition

[MartyG]

Cheers M.

 

No idea at all re the Thorowgood/Thorogood difference. As far as we are aware, it has always been Thorowgood as far as Sue’s family goes. Charles Augustus Thorowgood was Sidney’s father, his mother being Clara Jemima Thorowgood (nee  Jefferys as indicated on the GRO entry), and all my family research thus far shows only the spelling with the W. 

 

Curioser and curioser but it all adds to the fun of looking into our pasts.

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, MartyG said:

No idea at all re the Thorowgood/Thorogood difference. As far as we are aware, it has always been Thorowgood as far as Sue’s family goes ...

 

Curioser and curioser but it all adds to the fun of looking into our pasts.

It certainly does!

Probably just a MoP foible - but how it started = ???

I had a quick look at the two surnames and came up with these figures:

MIC appear to have 11 x Thorowgood compared with 275 x Thorogood

And CWGC have 4 x Thorowgood compared with 53 x Thorogood - both sources rather suggesting the latter, "Thorogood", spelling was perhaps the more 'normal' in the population,

Thorowgood is thus apparently positively 'select'!

;-) M