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Remembered Today:

Tic Toc, Tic Toc ...


Tom Tulloch-Marshall

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3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Would presume it is the bed marked "Flowers or shrubs" on the architect's plan


M

I think you will find that there is the “missing” row directly in front of the flower bed.( circled red )

12A78A63-A527-4F22-83F0-957FB165445C.jpeg

9756CA34-A632-43A6-9956-6D1A729E9261.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Knotty said:

M

I think you will find that there is the “missing” row directly in front of the flower bed.( circled red )

Thanks for pointing out my very obvious error in the text of my post !!! ;-) :-/

Oops!

Yes, I agree about the location of the missing row [and have thought so for quite a while]

I was thinking of something else as I typed and I rather/very unintentionally missed out ... it is "next to" / "adjacent to" the bed marked ... = Oops! - I should have checked before I posted :-(  Perhaps I should have alternatively referenced to Row A [or put between Row A and the bed] - but that row is still there and I was trying to highlight the complete grassiness of the area now - and yet the same still might have occurred :-/ :-(

[Backgound being I was pondering a PM to Tom - that Tom had been a bit slowing replying to earlier posts and I had had a bit of a subsequent cast around for other possibilities for his query's answer earlier, and on another point - and another non-GWF, even bigger thing, on my mind too]

Excuses, excuses!

I do admit it as typed above it does rather makes me look as if I couldn't see the missing row which has be subject of discussion in several earlier post(s)! :-(

Might look like/be perhaps a case of 'the man protesteth too much', but ... I am rather sore, as it does look extremely bad as originally typed! = Must do better in future!!

However answer agreed now :-) 

And the topic raised by Tom likely to be subject of interest for many I would think.

:-/  M

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M

If you’re anything like me, you bash it out on the keyboard and send before brain has time to engage😁. The old adage more haste less, speed springs to mind, at least that’s what my old fella used to say.

I noticed that Tom also said he was having communication issues see post#21.

 

Back to looking at the other Cemeteries he mentioned to see what is what.

 

John 

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39 minutes ago, Knotty said:

If you’re anything like me, you bash it out on the keyboard and send before brain has time to engage😁. The old adage more haste less, speed springs to mind, at least that’s what my old fella used to say.

'Fraid so!

:-) M

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall
51 minutes ago, Knotty said:

Back to looking at the other Cemeteries he mentioned to see what is what.

 

The issue of memorial crosses and boards is not at all small-scale. There must have been terrible confusion post war when exhumations and reburials were being made, and the ceremonies formalised. There were clearly genuine mistakes but there was also incompetence and corruption. Visit the archives.

 

There were also instances which reflect comments made by Voltair60 in post #11. Call them "innocent misrepresentations" perhaps. Nevertheless, misrepresentations. Some are fairly obvious, some are not. This is an interesting photograph. No great consequence to it, but it is interesting. IWGC were transparent about what happened here, as they were in some other instances >

 

1799447188_gwfGORDONCemetrycCWGCscannedFrance8_05_A.JPG.ee5116515812b12a5ba7bb5b038899f2.JPG

 

In other cases they were not transparent.

 

There's a bigger picture here. Raising an example involving memorial crosses or boards will be resisted. My opinion is that this is symptomatic of a culture of denial which has developed with regards to commemoration and other cases, - a refusal to examine cases constructively, a refusal to correspond and  discuss, a refusal to be "corrected". Research can be a bit like those join-the-dots tasks in children's comics. You have items of information (dots) which you examine and analyse, and join the dots. In the comic you may successfully get to a picture of a unicorn or the like. With an attempt to identify a burial you might get to an identity.

 

The child will understand that dot 22 has to join to dot 23, then to 24, and on to 25. There seems to be a mindset however whereby some people see that there is no existing line between 22 and 23 - hence there can be no connection between 22 and 23. No amount of explanation will convince them otherwise. Trust me - these people do exist - try one of these cases and you will meet them

Tom

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Tom, I remember you querying Charmes and in 2017 I took lots of photos for you which I sent on a CD. Did you ever receive it?

 

Gwyn

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Tom,

 

do you have indications that errors were made regarding these memorial rows?

This issue has been discussed several times on the forum using contemporary and current photographs where those memorial rows are no longer there. Also most of the concentration cemeteries had memorial rows which were removed when it was decided to commemorate these soldiers on memorials to the missing.

 

The errors made at Hooge Crater Cemetery are not only related to the memorial row. The parties doing the concentration work were accused of extremely bad work when an Australian soldier was found to have two graves, one of these was at Hooge. They were also accused of chopping remains in half to obtain more graves and show that they worked very well.

These continued accusations forced IWGC to re-exhume a number of graves for verification, these exhumation reports show that almost no identification attempt was made, bodies were buried face down (I believe this was only for some kind of criminals), head and feet reversed, a booth or helmet with nothing else, etc....

The report of this investigation is indeed very poor, I agree with your statement "keep the lid on".

 

More problems can be found at Hooge but will be difficult to detect and prove.

I have done extensive research on a German cemetery in my hometown which was only partially concentrated to Hooge in 1920.

Two British soldiers had 2 graves between 1920 and 1925: one at Hooge and another at the reconstructed German cemetery (using German information) that was later concentrated to Harlebeke in 1925. It was during the latter concentration work that the problem of 2 graves was detected. I am quite sure that the headstones at Hooge are wrong and that these soldiers are buried at Harlebeke as unknown.

Also, an unknown Canadian soldier has vanished and another one is so easy to identify but the report is sleeping at CWGC since 2017.........

 

Luc.

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2 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

My opinion is that this is symptomatic of a culture of denial which has developed with regards to commemoration and other cases, - a refusal to examine cases constructively, a refusal to correspond and  discuss, a refusal to be "corrected".

Without pointing a finger at CWGC - I think this general attitude is very common in many large organisations when dealing with interested & intelligent, but small & singular, people.

Have been though much similar in several other non-CWGC scenarios elsewhere - It is very hard work

And sometimes, but sadly not always, it can come off / come right in the end.

Still - try to remain positive and hopeful ... otherwise all is likely to be lost before you have started / without a battle [small or large]

  • noli illegitimi carborundum /  illegitimis non carborundum / nil illegitimi carborundum / non illegitimi carborundum / nil carborundum illegitimi / nil sine illegitimi carborundum / nolite te bastardes carborundum = Don't let anyone!

:-) M

 

Edited by Matlock1418
typo
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Tom Tulloch-Marshall
21 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Tom, I remember you querying Charmes and in 2017 I took lots of photos for you which I sent on a CD. Did you ever receive it?

 

Gwyn

 

Hello Gwyn - please pm me ref that.

Tom

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall
1 hour ago, LDT006 said:

1 - … do you have indications that errors were made regarding these memorial rows?

2 - The errors made at Hooge Crater Cemetery are not only related to the memorial row. The parties doing the concentration work were accused of extremely bad work ...

3 - These continued accusations forced IWGC to re-exhume a number of graves for verification, these exhumation reports show that almost no identification attempt ...

 

Hello Luc >

1 - Yes, and I have corresponded with CWGC with a case explanation. Waste of time.

2 - At Hooge my comments were about the cemetery in general. The situation there seems to have been quite dreadful. Sandbags in canvas ground sheets etc etc etc. There are several rows where the burials are back to front.

3 - Some re-exhumations at Hooge were made without IWGC being aware. They were less than pleased when the Court of Enquiry was sprung upon them.

 

My impression from archive material is that after the Hooge C.o.I. a lid was slammed shut on investigations of the wrongdoing and incompetence which was occurring probably on a very large and wide-ranging-scale. Jumping forward 100 years the CWGC / MoD seem to be determinedly blind to what happened post-war and have developed a policy of claiming that everything was 100% squeaky-clean and professionally and skillfully carried out. I think they've actually convinced themselves.

 

Tom

 

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My thoughts being, have they been  exhumed, possibly German or French.

Seems strange the scarlet thorn bushes at the front have gone as well, would that point to problems with the depth as a fair drop to the lower level, if the end started moving the graves could have been visible as would have needed a stronger retaining wall.

i notice it is recorded on the Canadian Affairs site, could they have exhumed. Failing that , were they original burials pencilled in but actions destroyed the graves, hence no bodies found.

Edited by chaz
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On 14/07/2020 at 22:48, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

 

Hello Gwyn - please pm me ref that.

Tom

 

I can't. It says you can't receive messages.

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