Unit-marked Pattern 1907 bayonet

[Didier H]

 

Here is the bayonet I have found  to go with my (now .22 LR-converted) BSA 1916 N° 1 Mk III*.

 

 

 

If I am not mistaken, 7 BRK should be interpreted as a bayonet used by the 7th batallion of the Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Wales's) and the weapon may have seen action against the Bulgars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wood is marked on either side but I cannot read the stamping : GR + crown?

 

 

The bayonet fits perfectly.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by Didier H

[museumtom]

brk Princess Charlotte of Wales Royal Berkshire Regiment.

[Didier H]

Thank you.

Is the fact that the bayonet is unit-marked proof in itself that it has actually seen action with the Royal Berkshire Regiment ?

[museumtom]

Sounds logical to me Didier. Used by them at some time or other after March 1915.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by museumtom

[JMB1943]

Didier,

 

Very good-looking bayonet, and VERY unusual that the scabbard throat is also marked “132” to match the number on the pommel!

Scabbard made by Hepburn, Gale & Ross in 1915.

EDIT: This bayonet has avoided the clearance hole that was to be drilled in the pommel from Dec. 1915 onwards.

EDIT: The stamping on both grips is probably Crown / 49 / W, an inspector's mark.

 

Amicalement,

JMB

 

 

 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by JMB1943
add info

[Didier H]

Thanks a lot for all this interesting information, JMB!

I was surprised that the (brown, not black) leather and the stitching on the scabbard were in such a good state of preservation after more than a century and I had suspected this could have been a copy of some sort, but the markings on the leather do look genuine.  

How unusual is, to your point of view, the rack number which is repeated on the scabbard throat?  Do you mean that it is the first time you have come across a marking of that kind on a Pattern 1907 bayonet scabbard?

Amicales salutations,

Didier 

[GWF1967]

Bayonet and scabbard both numbered 132 indicates they have remained as a matched pair since first stamped and issued. 

[Didier H]

That explains why the bayonet fits so snuggly inside its scabbard...

 

According to what I have read (https://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=980), "training (of the 7th Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment) was much improvised as equipment and khaki uniforms were not available until early spring of 1915", which is corroborated by the date when the blade was made : March of 1915.

[JMB1943]

4 hours ago, Didier H said:

How unusual is, to your point of view, the rack number which is repeated on the scabbard throat?  Do you mean that it is the first time you have come across a marking of that kind on a Pattern 1907 bayonet scabbard?

Amicales salutations,

Didier 

Didier,

 

As I said, VERY unusual; not the first one, but I only see paired rack numbers on bayonet and scabbard throat about 1-2 times per year.

Your bayonet/scabbard set with matching numbers is quite the rare pair!!

 

Amicalement,

JMB

[Didier H]

I am very pleased to read that - actually I was afraid the markings might have been faked, as they seemed to be so 'unusually' perfect in every way. I must say that the bayonet did not cost me an arm and a leg either (100 €, delivery to my home included). 

 

Best regards,

 

Didier 

[GWF1967]

20 minutes ago, Didier H said:

I must say that the bayonet did not cost me an arm and a leg either (100 €, delivery to my home included). 

 

Best regards,

 

Didier 

I didn’t cost an arm or a leg. 

 A very nice find. 

 

[trajan]

Nice find with matching numbers and a 'London Brown' scabbard to boot!

[Didier H]

Thank you all for your comments

 

 

Here is one last marking, on the scabbard : does the capital B indicate that the scabbard and/or bayonet was/were proofed in some way or other at BSA?

[JMB1943]

Didier,

 

That italic B absolutely is the B.S.A. inspection stamp.

 

Regards,

JMB

Edited 11 July , 2020 by JMB1943
typo

[Didier H]

 

I have had a closer look at the inspection marks on the wooden grips : they read something like Crown/?5/E, so I suppose they were stamped into the wood at Enfield.

 

 

 

The push button bears a number which is not the one found on the bayonet and its scabbard - does it mean that it was replaced at some time?

 

 

 

The final letter of the inspection mark on the leather looks like an E while the one which is on the metal of the scabbard is definitely a B - I find that rather confusing as it would indicate that this bayonet was inspected both at Enfield and at B.S.A. - why such a waste of time when the gear was so urgently needed by the 7th battalion of the Royal Berks in the spring of 1915?...

 

 

 

Edited 13 July , 2020 by Didier H

[JMB1943]

26 minutes ago, Didier H said:

(A) I have had a closer look at the inspection marks on the wooden grips : they read something like Crown/?5/E, so I suppose they were stamped into the wood.

(B)The push button bears a number which is not the one found on the bayonet and its scabbard - does it mean that it was replaced at some time?

(C)The final letter of the inspection mark on the leather looks like an E while the one which is on the metal of the scabbard is definitely a B - I find that rather confusing as it would indicate that this bayonet was inspected both at Enfield and at B.S.A. - why such a waste of time when the gear was so urgently needed by the 7th battalion of the Royal Berks in the spring of 1915?...

 

Didier,

 

(C) I think that the clue to understanding the inspection stamps is that they were put separately on each individual piece of the bayonet/scabbard,

and I make the following assumptions. 

The locket was either made (somewhere, by a contractor) and sent to BSA in Birmingham for inspection OR was made & inspected at BSA.

The Leather body of the scabbard was made by HGR Ltd in London and was either inspected in-house by an examiner from Enfield OR was sent to RSAF for inspection.

Scabbard metal parts were sent to HGR Ltd for final assembly.

Finished scabbards were sent to Wilkinson Ltd (London) for pairing with bayonets and delivery into stores.

 

(B) The numbered push-button is to me an eye-opener!! Have never previously seen or read of it.....presumably from another bayonet that was badly damaged.

 

(A) The wood grips were likely made at RSAF, Enfield from off-cuts remaining after a stock was cut from a piece of walnut, and inspected there; they were then sent to the bayonet makers.

 

Amicalement,

JMB

 

 

[Didier H]

Wow, JMB!  Let me tell you just how impressed I am by your knowledge!

Yes, what you have written here does make sense.

 

I suppose the replacing of the push-button was either done by the unit's armourer or simply post-WW1 by a bloke who happened to have a spare one at his disposal...

 

Thank you very much indeed for the time you took to answer my questions

 

Bien amicalement,

 

Didier 

Edited 13 July , 2020 by Didier H

[JMB1943]

Didier,

 

Don’t be too impressed with my knowledge, there are still considerable holes in it!

I joined the Forum 5 years ago, as an absolute beginner with no knowledge at all.

I asked questions, received good guidance and read all of the past threads about my topics of interest.

As many others have said on the Forum, decide what the direction of your collecting is and buy 1-2 reference books on that topic.

 

Amicalement,

JMB

[GWF1967]

2 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Didier,

 - decide what the direction of your collecting is and buy 1-2 reference books on that topic.

 

Amicalement,

JMB

And if you have no sense of direction, and rummage  through dusty junk shops for  “finds” as they come, there are hugely knowledgable and helpful  folk here to tell you what your rusty relic is/was.

 

[trajan]

I don't collect P.1907's as you all know, but I was intrigued by the numbered push-button. Pre WW1 German bayonets often have numbers and/or inspection marks there, indicating the manufacturing process was more artisan than industrial in some respects.   

[Didier H]

17 hours ago, trajan said:

I don't collect P.1907's as you all know, but I was intrigued by the numbered push-button. Pre WW1 German bayonets often have numbers and/or inspection marks there, indicating the manufacturing process was more artisan than industrial in some respects.   

To my point of view (and I have to stress that I know close to nothing about Pattern 1907 bayonets), those rack numbers must have been stamped at unit level, but the fact is that, without taking the bayonet apart, I don't see how this push-button could ever be stamped. This must be a replacement part anyway, but the question remains as to the need to stamp such a small part - was it because it was a moving one and, as such, could be lost?...

[Didier H]

21 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Didier,

 

Don’t be too impressed with my knowledge, there are still considerable holes in it!

I joined the Forum 5 years ago, as an absolute beginner with no knowledge at all.

I asked questions, received good guidance and read all of the past threads about my topics of interest.

As many others have said on the Forum, decide what the direction of your collecting is and buy 1-2 reference books on that topic.

 

Amicalement,

JMB

JMB, as I have already stated, I am mainly interested in weapons. I already have Skennerton's massive book on the Lee-Enfield, plus a few others, but I haven't got the one he wrote about bayonets. The historical aspects of these weapons matter much more to me than their "practical use", although I am what you could call a confirmed shooter. So the fact that the unit in which this bayonet was used can be clearly identified and the wealth of markings it bears are of particular interest to me, as it gives me the possibility of tracing the history of the object from its beginnings to WWI at least. 

 

Amicalement,

 

Didier