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Thomas Brown, Gunner, RFA, 176002 new information in search!


Hezzi29

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I've been trying to find out more on my great uncle's war, but have got stuck.

Unfortunately he has a very common name (no middle name) and the details I have are scant: born 5/3/98 in Sundrum (or Woodhead Road) near Coylton in Ayrshire.

The only information I can find is the records of his medals, though this gave me his Regiment Number: 176002. In trying to search this reg number, I cant find anything further. I had hoped to find a little about his service, the unit or battery he was in.

Would anyone have tips/advice on where to search for further?

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Welcome to the forum. The first place to start is have a read of the Long Long Trail website, which has lots of information about how to research soldiers.

Michelle 

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His medal records seem to be the only surviving documents (some 60% of service records were lost in WW2)

 

Medal card at the National Archives here:

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1543050  This gives, as is normal, no indication of which battery/brigade he served with.  The notations at bottom left are the reference of the medal list on which he appears, they are on Ancestry but give no further information.

There is no date against "Qualifying date" bottom left, this is only given if the man served overseas in a theatre of war before the end of 1915 so he went overseas after the beginning of 1916..  Longlongtrail that Michelle directs you to has a detailed explanation of how to interpret a medal card.

 

It is sometimes possible to glean information about a man's unit from looking at records that do survive where the numbers are similar.  Not in this case having looked at a few near numbers, the records of which all give different batteries.

 

All too typical I'm afraid.

 

Max

 

 

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I can tell from his regimental number that he arrived at No. 6 Depot RFA, Glasgow, in the first week of November 1916. After that it will be very difficult to chart his path. You could try local newspapers to see if he gets a mention. Another favourite avenue, if still in existence, are Absent Voters Lists, which sometimes give the unit. Unfortunately, both of these are very hit and miss.

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From my last post, we could only find a war medal record for my great uncle. However, a member of the family has unearthed some documents, but I'm not sure how to interpret them.

One is a letter from his father (my g. grandfather) to the war office to clarify that he was willing to offer his son reemployment after the war.  In this letter he refers to his son's details as "176002 Signaller Thomas Brown A. Sub. B Battery, 123 Brigade, 37th Division B.E.F." however Tom was a Gunner according to his Medal card. But a certificate that he passed a Signals course has also come to light. 

I have a few questions:

What could the "A. Sub." be referring to - I understand that the rest is the unit he served in.

Was it usual for a gunner to train in Signals?

Was he a gunner or a Signaller?

Where would the signallers course taken place?

 

 

 

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You might be better adding it to your old thread ? here

You can always go back into your post1 on that thread and adjust the title ?

moderators can help.

 

Charlie

 

A Sub is A Sub-section

gunner is Rank, Signaller is qualification

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Without his service record we can't be sure that he spent all his active service in 123 Brigade and equally where and when he did his signals course can't really be definitively stated.  Does the certificate give clues as to place or date?  Nonerheless:

 

This outline of 37th Division's war will be of interest:https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/37th-division/  This also on 123 (CXXIII) Brigade 

:https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/batteries-and-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery/cxxiii-cxxiv-cxxv-cxxvi-howitzer-brigades-37th-divisional-artillery/  When reading this remember that the artillery was not on the front lines but supported the actions of the infantry whose job it was to close with the enemy..

 

You will see from the latter that the brigade had four batteries, initially with four, later six guns each.  Each of the guns with its detachment was known as a sub as Charlie says so A Sub in B Battery pins him down quite well.

 

The war diary of 123 Brigade can be downloaded free (at the moment) from the National Archives, you just need to register.  http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354059  He is unlikely to be mentioned by name. Look out for B/123 or B Battery.  A signaller would not normally be employed on the guns once qualified so the address which links him to a gun detachment may be out of date.  His mail would still get to him though!

 

Max

 

PS This of interest too:

 

https://royalfieldartilleryww1.blogspot.com/2013/08/rfa-signalers.html

 

 

Edited by MaxD
PS added
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On 10/07/2020 at 13:32, charlie962 said:

You might be better adding it to your old thread ? here

You can always go back into your post1 on that thread and adjust the title ?

moderators can help.

 

Charlie

 

A Sub is A Sub-section

gunner is Rank, Signaller is qualification

Ok. Will do thanks

 

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On 10/07/2020 at 15:23, MaxD said:

Without his service record we can't be sure that he spent all his active service in 123 Brigade and equally where and when he did his signals course can't really be definitively stated.  Does the certificate give clues as to place or date?  Nonerheless:

 

This outline of 37th Division's war will be of interest:https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/37th-division/  This also on 123 (CXXIII) Brigade 

:https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/batteries-and-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery/cxxiii-cxxiv-cxxv-cxxvi-howitzer-brigades-37th-divisional-artillery/  When reading this remember that the artillery was not on the front lines but supported the actions of the infantry whose job it was to close with the enemy..

 

You will see from the latter that the brigade had four batteries, initially with four, later six guns each.  Each of the guns with its detachment was known as a sub as Charlie says so A Sub in B Battery pins him down quite well.

 

The war diary of 123 Brigade can be downloaded free (at the moment) from the National Archives, you just need to register.  http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354059  He is unlikely to be mentioned by name. Look out for B/123 or B Battery.  A signaller would not normally be employed on the guns once qualified so the address which links him to a gun detachment may be out of date.  His mail would still get to him though!

 

Max

 

PS This of interest too:

 

https://royalfieldartilleryww1.blogspot.com/2013/08/rfa-signalers.html

 

 

Thanks for this Max, appreciate the explanation and I'll look up links. I had downloaded the company diary, then got sidetracked with something else, so will get back to it. The certificate has Signal Section 1B (Reserve) Brigade RFA, dated 2nd May 1918 and has an oval stamp mark of the Brigade. At the bottom left corner it says "Forest Row".

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That puts another query to bed.  1B Reserve Brigade, which among other things was a training unit, was at Forest Row in Sussex at that time, no distance at all from the Royal Artillery Signaller Training School at Crowborough Sussex.  This all suggests he was back in UK to train as a signaller and in all likelihood returned to France afterwards.

 

MaxD

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Threads merged 

Michelle 

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On 11/07/2020 at 16:11, Hezzi29 said:

A signaller would not normally be employed on the guns once qualified

Hi. After qualifying, would he still have been attached of the 123 Brigade?

 

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Without his record it isn't really possible to say definitively whether he went back to B Bty 123 Brigade, moved to another battery in the brigade or whether he was posted to another brigade.

 

I think what I wrote about not being on the guns as a signaller may have prompted the query, perhaps unnecessarily.  The address used by his father clearly refers to a man in a gun detachment so we know he was on the guns before he trained as a signaller.  If he had later moved to another brigade then he would have had another address but there are no later letters.  Equally well, if he had returned to 123 Brigade to be employed as a signaller, either in B Battery or one of the other batteries of the brigade then in the best ordered world his address would not have the "A Sub B Bty" bit .In theory, he would have written to his father saying Hi Dad here's my new address  but we would need another letter after May 1918 to prove that and he may not have bothered.

 

Max

 

PS - when was the letter from father dated?

 

 

 

Edited by MaxD
PS added
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On 11/07/2020 at 16:11, Hezzi29 said:

A signaller would not normally be employed on the guns once qualified

Hi. After qualifying, would he still have been attached of the 123 Brigade?

 

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Thanks MaxD. All makes sense... the letter was dated 10th Jan 1919, and he was demobbed in March 1919 so I guess we can assume that this was his final (and possibly only) posting. 

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I agree that it is relatively safe to make the assumption that he was still with 123 Brigade even if the address was pedantically not quite right.

 

Max

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