What Army uniform is this

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi Jab, 

Any chance of getting a good quality scan of these photos? Mobile phone shots really don't  do them justice. I bet that you would find a lot of extra detail in the cap badge, shoulder titles and so on, which would help the uniform experts to  make a positive identification.

[Jab]

Thanks, iam not really sure how to go about that.

[Jervis]

If you could provide more family details we may be able to help more. Right now apart from the photos themselves all we  know (a) name = John Byrne (b) born 1892 (c) lived in Allingham buildings, Dublin 8. 

 

For example; there is a set of service records on ancestry which could well be this man. John Byrne born 1892 of St Audeons parish enlisted 5th Dublin Fusiliers as a reservist in 1909. Address is Marrowbone Lane, The street next to Allingham buildings. Parent are John & Hannah, elder brother Patrick and sister Hannah.
 

Could this be the man? 

Edited 8 July , 2020 by Jervis

[Jab]

Hi Jarvis, thanks a lot for looking that up. If he was born in 1892 would they let u enlist as a reservist  at 17 years old.

[Jervis]

22 minutes ago, Jab said:

Hi Jarvis, thanks a lot for looking that up. If he was born in 1892 would they let u enlist as a reservist  at 17 years old.

Officially - No. Unofficially - Yes. They wouldn’t have been asking for proof of age. There were thousands of underage soldiers in the First World War. My great grandfather joined at 16 years; his enlistment papers has him recorded as 19 years old. 

Edited 8 July , 2020 by Jervis

[depaor01]

The enlistment forms asked only for "Apparent Age"

Dave

[C.TIERNEY.]

Hi JAB,

 

Just a thought, are we looking at two generations of your family here?

If born in 1892 he would have been 45 when the photo in uniform with the horse was taken (if it's Irish army) as that uniform was only issued about 1937 (I think). Could this be son of?

 

Regards,

C.T.,

 

[Jab]

Yeah i was thinking that myself, iam not sure if the man with the horse is the same man in the other 2 photos. They dont look terribly alike and the photo looks newer. If thats the case i dont know who the man with the horse is. We could be looking at my grandfather in the earlier photos and he it would appear from all the posts here was in the british army and the other man was a horseman in the irish army. Thanks for the comment C.T

 

Thanks Depaor and Jervis fantastic knowledge from everybody, i remember my mother saying her father my other grandfather lied about his age and joined the british army in 1914 and said he was 16. Its amazing that being born in the era that they where born in led to this kind of thing happening. Young people are so lucky these days.

[Wexflyer]

Those suggesting that photo #1 is BA, would make their case a lot stronger if they could propose specific candidate units wearing such a uniform, at the correct time.  I don't think there can be that many.

[headgardener]

20 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

Those suggesting that photo #1 is BA, would make their case a lot stronger if they could propose specific candidate units wearing such a uniform, at the correct time.  I don't think there can be that many.

 

BA = British Army....? The tunic and bandolier are definitely British Army. The hat also matches a style of hat worn by elements of the British army. And these details, plus the style of ‘cabinet photo’, all match the likely period in which the photo was taken (Edwardian). As for specific units, there are plenty of possibilities. The bandolier indicates that he served in a mounted role, so possibly a yeomanry unit or the transport section of an infantry unit.

[CorporalPunishment]

11 hours ago, C.TIERNEY. said:

Hello JAB,

Looking at the photo with the horse I think that uniform resembles the Irish uniform issued in the late 1930s with the scalloped breast pocket flaps, what look like 'jam pot' leggings and the size/shape of the cap badge. 

 

Regards,

C.T. 😷

 

 

 

The cap badge certainly looks like the Irish Army one to me.   Pete.

[TullochArd]

11 hours ago, C.TIERNEY. said:

Hello JAB,

Looking at the photo with the horse I think that uniform resembles the Irish uniform issued in the late 1930s with the scalloped breast pocket flaps, what look like 'jam pot' leggings and the size/shape of the cap badge. 

 

Regards,

C.T. 😷

 

 

 

 

I agree on Photo 3 C.T.  I got the leggings.  Good spot on the pockets   Badge size and shape indicates "FF"

[C.TIERNEY.]

 

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Edited 10 July , 2020 by C.TIERNEY.

[FROGSMILE]

The leather bandolier is the British Army issue from 1898.  It had been modified to take .303 ammunition as previously it was for the .455 Boxer Henry cartridge.  The combination of that together with the slouch hat and 1902 service dress jacket with the second type of shoulder fixture, the cords, suggests that the soldier in the photo was a member of his unit's Mounted Infantry (MI) Section.  The bandolier was replaced with a new pattern in 1903.

My guess is that he was probably in an Irish Line Regiment.  However, he could also be Royal Artillery, or even cavalry.  It is possible to just about see the correct pattern of cloth shoulder title on his left upper arm.

 

I agree 100% that in the photo with the horse he is wearing the cap, jacket and leg wear of the Army of the Irish Free State, which suggests that he was one of a great many former regular soldiers from British Army regiments who joined the Irish regular forces that fought for the 'Free Stater's' in the Irish Civil War. 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE