What Army uniform is this

[Jab]

[Wexflyer]

Perhaps Irish Citizen Army.

[Jab]

Yeah thats what i was thinking the bullet belt is very unusual and dont think its British Army issue, he is my grandfather but we have no information on him, because my father and his family have all passed away.

Thanks for the reply.

John.

 

[Jrmh]

Does the writing say ‘Slaters’ 14 Merchant Quay, Dublin?

[Jab]

Yeah it does

[depaor01]

The leather bandolier is Boer War era.

Dave

[headgardener]

The combination of bandolier and hat match Boer war era British army.

[depaor01]

I also think the buttons look more likely to be British. I see blurry general service rather than harps.

What was his name?

[Jab]

He was born in 1892 so couldn't be the Boar war, john byrne was his name and lived in Allingham buildings. Here's a few more photos.

 

Thanks for the replys.

[headgardener]

The tunic the first photo (with shoulder cords and shoulder title visible on his upper L arm) looks like pre-WW1 British army. The style of photo (called a ‘cabinet card’ - with a paper print pasted onto a card backing) was most common in the late 1800s up to about the outbreak of WW1.

The 3rd photo is in British army uniform, he’s wearing a ‘simplified’ tunic which dates from about 1915.

The other photo is hard to tell - could be post WW1 British army. I think Free State army uniforms tended to have upright collars, but the man in that photo has a fold down collar.

[headgardener]

Btw, the first photo is almost certainly Edwardian in terms of the uniform and the style of photograph and mount.

[Jab]

Thanks for the reply, so u think all British army uniforms and 3 different styles there. So he could of been in the British army for a good few years.

[headgardener]

Yes, that looks likely. If it’s the same man in all 3 photos then he was in a British army mounted unit during the Edwardian era, and in a British army unit in 1915. Like I say, the 2nd photo is hard to tell. The style of photograph (informal outdoors, almost certainly taken by a private individual with a small ‘box’ camera rather than a posed studio portrait) looks early 1920s and the uniform looks British based on the collar and cap.

[Jab]

Thanks for that, we never heard he was in the British Army but some familys tended to keep that information secret at that period, would that be correct. 

[headgardener]

Yes, I think Irish nationals who served in the British army in WW2 were subject to official and unofficial disapproval, so I can imagine that there may have been outright hosility towards them from some individuals throughout and even beyond the period of transition from British rule.

You could try posting the photos and the other details that you have here on the ‘Soldiers’ sub-forum in case someone there might be able to track down details of his time in the army. Make sure to put down everything we’ve discussed about the uniform, or provide a link to this thread, in order to avoid duplication.

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, Jab said:

Thanks for that, we never heard he was in the British Army but some familys tended to keep that information secret at that period, would that be correct. 

That is a very similar situation to myself. I am Irish and due to early deaths I was unfamiliar with my family history. Using ancestry and others I have established many generations of my family served in the British army. Unknown to me or my Father - my G-Grandfather & three G-Grand Uncles served in the Great War. Service among the working classes in Dublin City centre was really high. I would go so far as to say not serving was unusual. So you may well have many ancestors who served in the British army. I should also add service with the British does not necessarily exclude service with the Irish citizen Army or other rebels. 

 

Jervis 

Edited 8 July , 2020 by Jervis

[Jab]

Thats fantastic infomation jarvis, i only came across these photos when i was going through my Aunts possessions after she passed away and there is no living relatives to ask and my father never mentioned it, i don't know if the information was kept from him, he was very Republican in his views.

[Jab]

Thanks Headgardener, great info aswell.

 

Best Regards 

John

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, headgardener said:

..The tunic the first photo (with shoulder cords and shoulder title visible on his upper L arm) looks like pre-WW1 British army...

 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/88885-british-embroidered-shoulder-titles/?tab=comments#comment-828047

 

"Both the jacket with cords (w/embroidered titles) and the jacket with fixed Shoulder strap (GM titles) were worn side-by side from 1904 until July 1908 when the corded jackets and embroidered titles were ordered withdrawn. It is also fairly common to find photos of jackets with fixed shoulder straps and the earlier embroidered titles in photos circa 1905 through 07/8."

 

Edited 8 July , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[Jab]

He was born in 1892 so not sure that adds up, but thanks anyway, Andrew.

[C.TIERNEY.]

Hello JAB,

Looking at the photo with the horse I think that uniform resembles the Irish uniform issued in the late 1930s with the scalloped breast pocket flaps, what look like 'jam pot' leggings and the size/shape of the cap badge. 

 

Regards,

C.T. 😷

 

 

 

[headgardener]

45 minutes ago, Jab said:

Thats fantastic infomation jarvis, i only came across these photos when i was going through my Aunts possessions after she passed away and there is no living relatives to ask and my father never mentioned it, i don't know if the information was kept from him, he was very Republican in his views.

 

Plenty of Republicans served in the British army, the war (both WW1 & the Civil War) made for some strange bedfellows. Emmet Dalton had been an officer in the British army, and the man who shot Michael Collins had served in France with the Brits. There were numerous other examples. In fact, I seem to recall that Ex-Army men were strongly represented amongst the Pro-Treaty forces.

Edited 8 July , 2020 by headgardener

[Jab]

Very interesting head gardener thanks for that, i suppose they where different times and people where desperate for employment and would take any job they could get even if it meant joining the British Army against there conscience.

[headgardener]

I think it’s a little more complex than that. The republican movement was made up of individuals with varying attitudes towards home rule. Some wanted independence but saw German imperialism as a greater more immediate challenge than the fight for home rule. Others sought home rule but favoured retaining some sort of link to Britain. Others may have developed Republican sentiments as a result of the British response to the Easter Rising. Revolutionary movements are often made up of disparate groups with different goals. It’s the sort of thing that split families apart and helped drive the civil war.

EDIT: I think Tierney’s comments about the uniform in the 2nd photo are correct. There’s someth8ng about the scalloped pockets and the boots / gaiters that don’t look British Army. Not sure about the date though.

Edited 8 July , 2020 by headgardener

[Jab]

Plus also is it true that people where told if they fight for britain that Ireland would be given home rule.