Slkmum Posted 7 July , 2020 Share Posted 7 July , 2020 My grandfather was in the Bedfordshire regiment at the start of the war. He was taken prisoner during some of the first fighting close to Ypres and there are Red Cross records showing this. He also has a Labour Corps number and this is the number that he had when he returned to civilian life into in 1919. His number was 543019. I am a little confused as I can’t see how he could be a prisoner and in the Labour Corps I would be really grateful if somebody could help me out. Very many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsmith Posted 7 July , 2020 Share Posted 7 July , 2020 (edited) If you could post his details that would be useful. And welcome to the forum. Edited 7 July , 2020 by ajsmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 7 July , 2020 Share Posted 7 July , 2020 None of his (Albert Skinner's) POW records have anything about repatriation although a number of them have him in hospital in Sep 1915, 9 months after capture approx. POWs were repatriated during the war, newspaper reports of 1915 for example have many lists of men repatriated. His Labour Corps number was not issued before early 1918 so a possible scenario is that he was repatriated because he was sick, recovered and carried on to do his bit in the Labour Corps. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 July , 2020 Share Posted 8 July , 2020 (edited) I suspect that the scenario was probably as per Max’s suggestion and that he might perhaps have worked in a Home Service (HS) Employment Company once recovered sufficiently. Edited 8 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardenerbill Posted 8 July , 2020 Share Posted 8 July , 2020 Hi Slkmum welcome to the forum, According to 'No Labour, No Battle - Military Labour During the First World War' John Starling and Ivor Lee, numbers 543000 to 547800 were allocated February/March 1918, this suggests your Grandfather was transferred to the Labour Corps in early February 1918, as indicated by Frogsmile above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slkmum Posted 11 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2020 Thank you very much everyone. So the story is that he was repatriated due to illness and then transferred to Labour Corps. I am so very grateful for your knowledge so freely given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slkmum Posted 11 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2020 I know he was very badly treated as a prisoner and I could not write on this from his views of his captors! He always had a bad chest and died in 1952 just before The Great Smog which my mother said would have killed him anyway. He also never managed to kick the smoking habit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 12 July , 2020 Share Posted 12 July , 2020 This seems more complicated ? Albert Skinner 9648 of the Bedfordshire Regiment was wounded three times: Biggleswade Chronicle 8/1/1915 List dated 26 Nov 1914, published 5/1/15 Bedfords , Wounded A Skinner 9648 - ie wounded late November 1914. Biggleswade Chronicle 1/10/15 Casualties of April and May 1915 for 1st and 2nd Bedfords, Wounded: A Skinner 9648 -ie 2nd wounding April/May 1915 Then for the 3rd time (courtesy FindmyPast) This A Skinner 9648 became Labour Corps 543019. As noted above this would be a 1918 transfer. The A Skinner, 2nd Beds on the ICRC records seems to be Albert Louis George Skinner (1890-1952) Can someone make some sense out of this please ? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 12 July , 2020 Share Posted 12 July , 2020 The Skinner on the POW record is indeed Albert Louis George - the records do not quote his number at all, taken 24 Nov 1914, 2nd Bedfords, latest POW record Sep 1915. I didn't cross check any other numbers at the start. The Labour Corps BW and V medal award roll does have 543019 as earlier 9648. 9648 1914 Star roll for 2nd Bedfords - no notes except entered France 6 10 14. Medal card has both 9648 and 543019 SWB to 543019 Labour Corps. Questions then to Slkmum - was Albert - Albert Louis George Skinner and death Albert LG Skinner death Ware Q 2 1952. So far pointing to inaccurate reports. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slkmum Posted 12 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2020 Yes. Albert Louis George Skinner, died May 1952. i believe that at some point he was a POW. He spoke very little about his war experiences, other than about the abhorrent treatment of POWs by their captors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 As the POW record is clearly Albert Louis George Skinner and he is reported to have had the number 543019 when he returned to civilian life then the newspaper reports about 9648 cannot be right? Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 13 July , 2020 Admin Share Posted 13 July , 2020 The 1914 Star Roll for the Bedfordshire Regiment shows "9237 Pte A. G. Skinner 6.10.14. Prisoner of War" Image courtesy of Ancestry As repatriation seems highly unlikely, men were released to neutral countries such as Holland and Switzerland but only came home if incapable of fighting. Recommend the OP gets hold of 'Prisoners of the Kaiser' by Ricard van Emden for more details of his treatment. When returned to the UK most were suffering from malnutrition. Lists of repatriated prisoners were published in the newspapers. The date of landing in theatre suggests he was a reservist he appears to have entered theatre on the same date as 9648 who was also a reservist. They would appear to be two different men. There is a militia record on FMP for Albert George b.1890 enlisting 1907 Father Alfred, mother Kate brother John which one is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 Good spot Ken, I had looked (obviously badly) for another Skinner. So 9237 looks like the POW whose number is not recorded on his POW record and whose name was Albert Louis George. Would then have found that 9237 Albert G has a medal card annotated POW with the trio, the BW and V medals being on the Beds and Herts roll. Albert Louis George is said by Slkmum to have had the Labour Corps number 543019 "when he returned to civilian life in 1919". That number though is linked on medal records with 9648 who has no POW notes and served in the Labour Corps but is not Albert Louis George. The piece that needs clarification /evidence is the "when he returned he had 543019" Albert Louis George POW records have him hospitalised in the Reserve Lazarett at Hannover Muenden from capture up to the last record on 27 August 1915 but whether he was repatriated is now in doubt. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 13 July , 2020 Admin Share Posted 13 July , 2020 1 hour ago, MaxD said: The piece that needs clarification /evidence is the "when he returned he had 543019" As at post 8 9648 wounded late November 1914, returned to the fray 1915 Your post 9 Skinner 'taken' 24th November (the same action?) Clearly two different men, as 9648 was knocked about a bit he would be a prime candidate for the Labour Corps. Not a criticism but the OP had the wrong Skinner who did transfer to the LC and was renumbered 543019. I'd suggest local and national newspapers for repatriation lists 1918/9. I'm going out for a bike ride so maybe later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 1 hour ago, MaxD said: said by Slkmum to have had the Labour Corps number 543019 "when he returned to civilian life in 1919". Good progress, Definately confusion betweet two men ! Yes, Max, that is what needs clarification. It sounds as though it came from a Discharge Certificate but was it fact just a guess ? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, kenf48 said: There is a militia record on FMP for Albert George b.1890 enlisting 1907 Father Alfred, mother Kate brother John which one is he? This shows attestation to Militia then Enlistment in Regulars, Bedfodshire Regt 15/11/1907. Albert George born Waltham Cross. Near numbers 9230 enlisted Bedfords 6/11/1907 9235 enlisted Bedfords 9/11/1907 9237 9240 enlisted Bedfords 12/11/1907 Albert George born Waltham Cross is on the 1911 Census for the 2nd Bedfordshires. Edited 13 July , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 Slkmum Just to clarify. The problem is not a doubt about your father having been a POW but what seems to be related to the documentation of the two Skinners. It would seem that 9237 was your father and 9648 was the one who served in the same battalion, was wounded three times and ended up in the Labour Corps. Somewhere along the way, the medal card with 9648/543019 has perhaps been accepted as your father's but if he had some sort of documentation of the latter number then that adds another possible mix-up! Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 13 July , 2020 Admin Share Posted 13 July , 2020 2 hours ago, charlie962 said: Albert George born Waltham Cross is on the 1911 Census for the 2nd Bedfordshires. 543019 Skinner enlisted 12th October 1910 so should also be on the 1911 Census. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, kenf48 said: 543019 Skinner enlisted 12th October 1910 so should also be on the 1911 Census. The 2nd Bn Census I saw says Bermuda. Would 543019 man have made it there in time or is he perhaps still Depot ? I'll have a look. update- 1st Bn Bedfordshires at Aldershot 1911 have a 19 year old Pte Albert Skinner from Ware, Hertford Further update- Q1 1893 registered birth Ware Herts, Albert Skinner, mother's maiden name Hills Edited 13 July , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 Snap - which is Ware (where) our man's death was registered in 1952 - (we are told!) Albert Louis George birth was registered Edmonton which includes Waltham Cross. I feel the ground becoming shakier - are the two mixed up frpm a BMD point of view also? Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 (edited) I'm just going outside into the mid-day sun. It is safer. Charlie Albert Skinner of Ware seems to be son of William and Sarah. (1901 Census, siblings Lily 10, Victor 1) And Albert seems to be living with his parents in Hertford in 1939 Census. Born 1/1/1893 I really am going out now.... Edited 13 July , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 Albert Louis George's probate record (1953 death May 1952) has wife Emily Jane Skinner - Emily Jane Lucas when married in 1926. Birth was Edmonton (aka Waltham Cross) registered, death was Ware registered. An Albert Skinner birth registered Ware Q1 1893 which could just fit the 19 year old. Coincidence of Ware appearing in both men's life journey! All good fun but not sure it helps, all revolves around the numbers! Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 13 July , 2020 Share Posted 13 July , 2020 5 hours ago, MaxD said: An Albert Skinner birth registered Ware Q1 1893 which could just fit the 19 year old. That is the man born 1/1/1893 living with his parents 1939 that I quoted above. I suppose it is quite possible the two Albert Skinners are cousins. We need slkmum to respond and tell us about the family ! charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slkmum Posted 9 November , 2020 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2020 Hello, gosh, this makes fascinating reading and I have only just found it. My grandfather was born January 1890 in Waltham Cross with father Alfred and mother Kate. He was 9237 (I have his spoon!). I know that he went to Bermuda and am sure that I was once anecdotally told that he actually joined up before he was old enough, faking his age! That may not be quite true but I know he was young on joining up. What is FMP? I definitely know that he was a prisoner of war. You are all so incredibly knowledgeable and I am immensely grateful Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 9 November , 2020 Share Posted 9 November , 2020 1 hour ago, Slkmum said: What is FMP? FindMyPast Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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