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military medal


kemp52

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Hi Andy,

 

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:
5 hours ago, clk said:

So rather than his Bn, it looks like he was serving with the Bde HQ at the time of his medal action.

see post 9 and 12 above

 

Nice to find some 'official confirmation' though ;).

 

Fold3 have this pension index card:

image.png.1d23d3410e5fea88e96d06a9f4aa8555.png

Image sourced from Fold3

 

In some ways it's nice to think that he received his actual medal prior to his premature death. I guess that you would already know, but the DoB shown will most probably relate to Ethel rather than Harold.

 

Regards

Chris

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5 hours ago, kemp52 said:

Hello again ,thankyou  again for the documents . May i ask that if the Corps Commander was going to present the MM Brooch on the 1st August would that in fact be a different decoration to the Actual MM that im sure was delivered to his Widow ? Thankyou ,Andy .

Hi again, if the Corps Commander was going to present a soldier in the field a MM brooch would i be correct in thinking this was a brooch pin with the MM ribbon ? Thankyou .

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Yes. I assume it was like this. Most medals were posted to the home address or presented by a dignitary in his home town later. Harold receipted his in 1918.

 

Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 22.54.11.png

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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3 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Sure. It was a statement by his wife in a letter claiming a bronze death plaque (part of his service record on Ancestry):

Thanks. Got it.

 

3 hours ago, kemp52 said:

Harold Meadows died of VDH Vascular Disease of the Heart  caused by Gas 1915

According to the Death Certificate, the VDH is presumed to be caused by 'Acute Rheumatism'.

Although in his Service Record an entry states the VDH is 'due to active service' , it doesn't follow that this was caused by gas. And that entry would have been filled in by military rather than medical staff, quite possibly repeating a statement from sources other than the Death Certificate.

Gas clearly caused long term morbidity, with breathlessness due to a variety of causes extremely common, but VDH wasn't one of them.

'Aggravated' by military service, (the heart failure, rather than the structural disorder) is however perfectly justified.

 

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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12 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Yes. I assume it was like this. Most medals were posted to the home address or presented by a dignitary in his home town later. Harold receipted his in 1918.

 

Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 22.54.11.png

12 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Yes. I assume it was like this. Most medals were posted to the home address or presented by a dignitary in his home town later. Harold receipted his in 1918.

 

Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 22.54.11.png

 

 

Just now, kemp52 said:

 

Thankyou very much for the picture of the  MM Ribbon.

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13 hours ago, clk said:

Nice to find some 'official confirmation' though

Quite right. What your find also adds is that the award must have been July  if presentations planned for 1st Aug. So possible dates slowly narrowing down.

charlie

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In the medical Record of H Meadows it says First Date  of Disability <VDH> December 1915 . In December 1915 approx the 15th the 49th Division was subject to a Phosgene Gas attack at Wiejte Ypres .Many items online suggest the Phosgene  Gas causes many  different Heart and Pulmonary  problems  some leading later to an early death. So on the Medical Record that states attributed  to War service  and signed by the Medical Officer must have been correct and the poor man died in pain due to  an Enemy  Gas  Attack in Dec 1915. . Thank you all.

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Not wishing to deflect from the suffering that this man underwent, but the cause of death is essentially ‘heart disease’ which was apparently caused by a rheumatic condition - most likely rheumatic fever as this causes damage to the heart valves (‘VDH’) - and this was deemed to have been aggravated by the rigours of active service (which may - or may not - have involved him being gassed).

Edited by headgardener
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Probably correct there 

I dont seem to be able to find the Military Medal card on TNA?

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Thankyou Ivor Anderson for letting me have the MM index card  ,i also note that there is no shedule number <would that prove a date of initial award ?> However on the top of the card it says 0137/2798 ,have you any idea what this means .    Question , when we purchase a set of Replica Medals  should the  MM be  marked with the original Army Number of 1894 or with his later number of 240105 ?  Also if a MM was recommended    through the Despatches of an Officer would it follow that  an MID  Oak Leaf was also given ?  Thanks again everyone for such wonderful help !   Best Wishes Andy.

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15 minutes ago, kemp52 said:

Question , when we purchase a set of Replica Medals  should the  MM be  marked with the original Army Number of 1894 or with his later number of 240105 ? 

His original MM would show 1894 as the 240105 number wasn't given to him until 1917 which is why is doesn't feature in the LG entry or the MM medal card.

 

Alan.

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The service number and unit on the MM rim would be the same as those on the MM card - probably "1894 Cpl H. Meadows 1/5 Yorks L. I."

However, personally speaking, I would not get a replica engraved. It would have little value other than as a temporary sentimental substitute. You may come across his actual MM for sale some day! My advice would be to purchase a genuine MM group like the one below (he was entitled to the other 3 medals shown) and display it with his details printed on card below for now. You then also have a genuine MM group to sell and replace with Harold's actual group should it come up for sale. Do careful research first!

 

DSC_0960 copy.jpg

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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On 07/07/2020 at 20:29, Ivor Anderson said:

His MM index card is very sparse on detail. On NA under Cpl. H. Meadows 1/5 Bn., service no. 1894 - no schedule no. on it.

Howard Williamson says that the 1.9.1916 Gazette was for 25 June to 29 July. Largely the 1st four weeks of the Somme (1-29 July

Ivor, can we be sure that the medal was for an action during the above period? The lack of schedule number could indicate an action which took place prior to the medal's authorisation in March 1916.

 

I have recently researched a chap from the 1/6 West Riding Regiment, Duke of Wellington's whose action was 19 Dec 1915 but not gazetted until November 1916. He too had no schedule number.

 

My chap was no longer serving after April 1916 due to being time expired. This could explain why one man (still serving) was gazetted in September and the other (disembodied) not until November. It could be that the backdated awards started with those still serving.

 

Just a thought?

 

Alan.

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Anything is possible Alan. There are exceptions to every rule. This was only the 5th MM gazette, but the previous 2, on 10th and 23 August, overlapped with June & July awards. The 23 August gazette seemed to have no schedule numbers recorded on the MM cards, and Howard notes beside the 11.11.16 gazette that 'retro awards do not generally carry schedule numbers'. So, it is definitely worth searching the WD for earlier mentions of Harold- it could be an upgraded mention in despatches! :)

 

Also, Andy asked about 0137/2798 on Harold's MM index card. Other 1/5 Yorkshire MMs listed in that gazette (and some from 1/4) have the same ref. number. and a schedule number just below it! Could be an award authority reference?

The following KOYLI awards have the 0137/2798 reference above their schedule nos. - all in 1-9.16 gazette:

Schedule no. 41623 Pte. W. Naylor 4662 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41624 Sgt. J. Cropper 1174 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41625 L/c S. Musgrave 2403 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41627 Pte. G. Leonard 1869 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41828 Sgt. R. W. Paterson 2486 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41629 Cpl. H. W. Gudgin 2481 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41630 Sgt. G. W. Stainthorpe 2368 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41631 Cpl. J. T. Fletcher 2534 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41632 Pte. A. Davy 3699 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41633 Pte. W. H. Addy 3064 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule nos. 41634-38 unknown identity - one possibly Harold Meadows?

Schedule no. 41639 Sgt. A. Bradley 1962 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41640 Sgt. A. E, Brignell 2385 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41643 Pte. P Spurr 1925 - 1/4 Battalion

 

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Anything is possible Alan. There are exceptions to every rule. This was only the 5th MM gazette, but the previous 2, on 10th and 23 August, overlapped with June & July awards. The 23 August gazette seemed to have no schedule numbers recorded on the MM cards, and Howard notes beside the 11.11.16 gazette that 'retro awards do not generally carry schedule numbers'. So, it is definitely worth searching the WD for earlier mentions of Harold- it could be an upgraded mention in despatches! :)

 

Also, Andy asked about 0137/2798 on Harold's MM index card. Other 1/5 Yorkshire MMs listed in that gazette (and some from 1/4) have the same ref. number. and a schedule number just below it! Could be an award authority reference?

The following KOYLI awards have the 0137/2798 reference above their schedule nos. - all in 1-9.16 gazette:

Schedule no. 41623 Pte. W. Naylor 4662 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41624 Sgt. J. Cropper 1174 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41625 L/c S. Musgrave 2403 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41627 Pte. G. Leonard 1869 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41828 Sgt. R. W. Paterson 2486 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41629 Cpl. H. W. Gudgin 2481 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41630 Sgt. G. W. Stainthorpe 2368 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41631 Cpl. J. T. Fletcher 2534 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41632 Pte. A. Davy 3699 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41633 Pte. W. H. Addy 3064 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule nos. 41634-38 unknown identity - one possibly Harold Meadows?

Schedule no. 41639 Sgt. A. Bradley 1962 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41640 Sgt. A. E, Brignell 2385 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41643 Pte. P Spurr 1925 - 1/4 Battalion

 

 

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Just now, kemp52 said:

 

This is great stuff.Assuming that the Shedule number would be 41634-38 what would that tell me ? would that be the initial date of award /recommendation etc ?

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2 hours ago, kemp52 said:

This is great stuff.Assuming that the Shedule number would be 41634-38 what would that tell me ? would that be the initial date of award /recommendation etc ?

 

Thanks to Chris' link to the 49 Brigade WD in post 15, we know that Harold was presented with his MM ribbon brooch on 1-8-1916 by the Corps Commander, along with Cropper, Fletcher and Naylor, who are in the above list of schedule numbers. The other KOYLI in the 1.9.16 Gazette are not on that presentation list, but were probably Somme awards. All the others on the Brigade presentation list appear in the LG of 1.9.1918. Harold was with 148 Infy. Bde. HQ on the presentation list, whereas the other 3 were with their battalion. It is a jigsaw that we are trying to complete a piece at a time! :)

Your family tradition that he rescued an officer from no man's land would suggest an individual award. As he has no schedule number on his MM card, his MM could be retrospective for an act that occurred before the introduction of the MM and be initially listed as a MID?

Note: Cropper & Naylor's schedule nos. are consecutive and their MMs were awarded together (see Chris' 49 Brigade award list extract below).

Fletcher was the only man of 1/5 to get his presented on 1.8.16 (he later got an MM bar). These men may have been selected for presentation due to significant individual acts, during a major battle for which many MMs were awarded. The fact that Harold is the only award on the list for 148 Bde. HQ is significant. 

I would check further back in the WDs in case Harold was previously mentioned in despatches, and later upgraded to an MM.

The 148 Brigade WD may be worth a look: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14055633

Then start looking back through the 1/5 WD (pity June is missing!).

Then 1/4 WD might turn up a connected MM list: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354671

 

Screen Shot 2020-07-11 at 15.58.04.png

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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I shall check in the early parts of the Brigade WD onwards to august 1916 to see what i can find ,even if nothing comes up i will have read the day to day accounts and will have learnt more about the Hell in the Woods .My own Grandad was in High Wood 2 RWF and now im helping my best mate research his Gt Grandad of whom he knew very little except of ,lost medals , a family story or two  and an MM. My Friend and i stand in awe as to what you know . We are both very grateful indeed . 

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Hi Andy,

On 09/07/2020 at 20:48, charlie962 said:
  On 09/07/2020 at 13:43, kemp52 said:

Family history says that the  MM award was given as H . Meadows and two other soldiers of 1/5th KOYLI left the trenches under fire to help an Officer who had been left wounded in No Mans Land  .The two others soldiers were shot and killed and H Meadows carried the Officer under fire back to the Front Line and safety .

 

On 09/07/2020 at 20:48, charlie962 said:

Here is a list of 1/5th Officer Casualties 1/7-3/8/16: (courtesy Ancestry and National Archives War Diaries)

1529486048_GWFMeadowsHKOYLIOfficersWoundedJuly1916.JPG.3b09e9509462f4b49e1d9ee4db03ae22.JPG

 

The other Ranks casualties in that period for the Battalion seem to be of the order of 57 killed,  250 wounded and  53 missing.

 

So a lot of work to do finding suitable matches ? The date of wounding of officers should appear in War Diary and the circumstances. Then perhaps CWGC/SDGW for a list of ORS killed in Action that day ? And we don't even know if the officer rescued was 1/5th Bn !

 

Charlie

 

 

Following the same line of thought as Charlie, and with the same caveat of if we are talking about 1/5th men, including the wounded officer, then the CWGC appears to show:

image.png.80540c7f52fbe644ef68b2b046c6a397.png

 

Adding a bit to the image that Charlie posted, the A&Q diary records the dates of the officer woundings:

image.png.3c5dfc0f880b4c7948a1030bfbf2050c.png

Images sourced from Ancestry

 

There is an earlier Routine Order of 15.7.1916 in the A&Q diary, which gives a citation for a man named Ryan who was awarded a MM for his actions on 5.7.1916. It is Gazetted on 10.8.1916. Given the dates of the wounded officers that might point towards actions on the 6th/7th July for Meadows' MM action award.

 

The diary also contains this:

image.png.c7985ef2ceeae4777cbc94dcaa8d3cb0.png

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

I guess that we won't know, but I did wonder if the men who received the brooches on 1st August were men that were identified as warranting particular recognition.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

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These 3 soldiers from the 5th KOYLI are among those individually commended by their COs in the 148th Bde WD at the end of the account of the action on 5th July 1916:

Schedule no. 41631 Cpl. J. T. Fletcher 2534 - 1/5 Battalion (on 1-8-16 presentation list)

Schedule no. 41632 Pte. A. Davy 3699 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41633 Pte. W. H. Addy 3064 - 1/5 Battalion

These men from 1/4 KOYLI are among those commended at the end of the 148 Bde accounts for 3rd, 5th & 7th July 1916:

Schedule no. 41624 Sgt. J. Cropper 1174 - 1/4 Battalion (on 1-8-16 presentation list)

Schedule no. 41625 L/c S. Musgrave 2403 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41626 Pte. S. Brooke 1361 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41637 L/Cpl. C. H. Bathe 1807 - 1/4 York & Lanc. (Bde WD 3-7-16)

Schedule no. 41638 L/Cpl. C. J. Brady 2386 - 1/4 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41641 Sgt. E. Binney 1971 - 1/5 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41642 Cpl. J. Micklewaite 1605 - 1/4 Battalion (on 5-7/16 account below)

Schedule no. 41643 Pte. P Spurr 1925 - 1/4 Battalion (on 5-7/16 account below)

I looks likely that Harold Meadow's MM was for the same period, given that the AO ref (0137/2798) on their MM cards is the same.

N.B. L/Cpl. T. Leadbeater (3270) and Pte. S. Short (2880) of 1/5 Bn. got the DCM (LG 22-09-1916).

        L/Cpl A. Wilby (15421) of 10th? Bn. is listed in the MM gazette of 10-08-1916 under a different AO reference.

        Sgt. E. Binney (1971) is in the 1-9-16 LG under York & Lanc. Regt.- Schedule no. 41641

5-7-16.png

Screen Shot 2020-07-12 at 10.08.41.png

Screen Shot 2020-07-12 at 10.12.52.png

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

These 3 soldiers from the 5th KOYLI are among those individually commended by their COs in the 148th Bde WD at the end of the account of the action on 5th July 1916:

Schedule no. 41631 Cpl. J. T. Fletcher 2534 - 1/5 Battalion (on 1-8-16 presentation list)

Schedule no. 41632 Pte. A. Davy 3699 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41633 Pte. W. H. Addy 3064 - 1/5 Battalion

These men from 1/4 KOYLI are among those commended at the end of the 148 Bde accounts for 3rd, 5th & 7th July 1916:

Schedule no. 41624 Sgt. J. Cropper 1174 - 1/4 Battalion (on 1-8-16 presentation list)

Schedule no. 41625 L/c S. Musgrave 2403 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41626 Pte. S. Brooke 1361 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41637 L/Cpl. C. H. Bathe 1807 - 1/4 York & Lanc. (Bde WD 3-7-16)

Schedule no. 41638 L/Cpl. C. J. Brady 2386 - 1/4 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41641 Sgt. E. Binney 1971 - 1/5 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41642 Cpl. J. Micklewaite 1605 - 1/4 Battalion (on 5-7/16 account below)

Schedule no. 41643 Pte. P Spurr 1925 - 1/4 Battalion (on 5-7/16 account below)

I looks likely that Harold Meadow's MM was for the same period, given that the AO ref (0137/2798) on their MM cards is the same.

N.B. L/Cpl. T. Leadbeater (3270) and Pte. S. Short (2880) of 1/5 Bn. got the DCM (LG 22-09-1916).

        L/Cpl A. Wilby (15421) of 10th? Bn. is listed in the MM gazette of 10-08-1916 under a different AO reference.

        Sgt. E. Binney (1971) is in the 1-9-16 LG under York & Lanc. Regt.- Schedule no. 41641

5-7-16.png

Screen Shot 2020-07-12 at 10.08.41.png

Screen Shot 2020-07-12 at 10.12.52.png

19 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

 

Thanks to Chris' link to the 49 Brigade WD in post 15, we know that Harold was presented with his MM ribbon brooch on 1-8-1916 by the Corps Commander, along with Cropper, Fletcher and Naylor, who are in the above list of schedule numbers. The other KOYLI in the 1.9.16 Gazette are not on that presentation list, but were probably Somme awards. All the others on the Brigade presentation list appear in the LG of 1.9.1918. Harold was with 148 Infy. Bde. HQ on the presentation list, whereas the other 3 were with their battalion. It is a jigsaw that we are trying to complete a piece at a time! :)

Your family tradition that he rescued an officer from no man's land would suggest an individual award. As he has no schedule number on his MM card, his MM could be retrospective for an act that occurred before the introduction of the MM and be initially listed as a MID?

Note: Cropper & Naylor's schedule nos. are consecutive and their MMs were awarded together (see Chris' 49 Brigade award list extract below).

Fletcher was the only man of 1/5 to get his presented on 1.8.16 (he later got an MM bar). These men may have been selected for presentation due to significant individual acts, during a major battle for which many MMs were awarded. The fact that Harold is the only award on the list for 148 Bde. HQ is significant. 

I would check further back in the WDs in case Harold was previously mentioned in despatches, and later upgraded to an MM.

The 148 Brigade WD may be worth a look: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14055633

Then start looking back through the 1/5 WD (pity June is missing!).

Then 1/4 WD might turn up a connected MM list: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354671

 

Screen Shot 2020-07-11 at 15.58.04.png

 

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Ive read something on his record that i missed a while back and that is that he was "A" Coy 1/5th Yorks LI .Also yes according to The Long Long Trail a Batt HQ held One Corporal and 15 Privates employed as Signals /Messengers.

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A Brigade runner or a retrospective action are looking to be the most likely scenarios, considering that he is the only soldier from the KOYLI not to have a schedule number, and the only one from 148 Bde HQ on the 1-8-16 presentation list. A careful backward reading of the Brigade WD may yet prove fruitful (again, no June 16 WD!). 

All other 148 Brigade soldiers in the 1-9-18 gazette are now accounted for (the final digit of 41635, 6 & 8 are very unclear on the MM cards!).

They have the same 0137/2798 reference above their schedule nos.

Schedule no. 41623 Pte. W. Naylor 4662 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41624 Sgt. J. Cropper 1174 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41625 L/c S. Musgrave 2403 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41626 Pte. S. Brooke 1361 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41627 Pte. G. Leonard 1869 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41828 Sgt. R. W. Paterson 2486 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41629 Cpl. H. W. Gudgin 2481 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41630 Sgt. G. W. Stainthorpe 2368 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41631 Cpl. J. T. Fletcher 2534 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41632 Pte. A. Davy 3699 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41633 Pte. W. H. Addy 3064 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41634 Cpl. A Eaton 1797 - 1/4 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41635 L/Cpl. H. T. Levesley 2420 - 1/4 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41636 Pte. A. Morton 2500 - 1/4 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41637 L/Cpl. C. H. Bathe 1807 - 1/4 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41638 L/Cpl. C. J. Brady 2386 - 1/4 York & Lanc.

Schedule no. 41639 Sgt. A. Bradley 1962 - 1/4 Battalion

Schedule no. 41640 Sgt. A. E, Brignell 2385 - 1/5 Battalion

Schedule no. 41641 Sgt. E. Binney 1971 1/5 York & Lanc. 

Schedule no. 41642 Cpl. J. Micklewaite 1605 - 1/4 Battalion 

Schedule no. 41643 Pte. P Spurr 1925 - 1/4 Battalion

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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