HARRY BUTCHER WEST

[DREEKS55]

Hi folks,

 

I'm trying to find any information whatsoever about Harry Butcher West. He signed up in 1915 to the Royal Lancs Fusiliers (in Rochdale), regimental number -11336. Then transferred to the MFP in 1917, regimental number - P10154, finally transferring to the Labour Corps in January 1918 at South Ripon Camp, regimental number - 599244.

Much appreciated.

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, DREEKS55 said:

I'm trying to find any information whatsoever about Harry Butcher West. He signed up in 1915 to the Royal Lancs Fusiliers (in Rochdale), regimental number -11336. Then transferred to the MFP in 1917, regimental number - P10154, finally transferring to the Labour Corps in January 1918 at South Ripon Camp, regimental number - 599244.

Welcome to GWF.

Just to give us a bit of a starter please - where did you get your information from?

Also If you can share his parents' names and/or any sibling(s) names

DoB or address and you will seriously improve you chances of getting a much better result from GWF

Genealogy does help when sorting through military records.

Good luck with your quest.

;-) M

Edited 6 July , 2020 by Matlock1418

[PRC]

4 hours ago, DREEKS55 said:

I'm trying to find any information whatsoever about Harry Butcher West. He signed up in 1915 to the Royal Lancs Fusiliers (in Rochdale), regimental number -11336. Then transferred to the MFP in 1917, regimental number - P10154, finally transferring to the Labour Corps in January 1918 at South Ripon Camp, regimental number - 599244.

 

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

I'm assuming this all came from his surviving service record pages and his discharge record. I can see them both on FindMyPast and they should also be on Ancestry.

 

If that is the case then you know he was 35 years and 3 months old when he enlisted at Rochdale on the 4th August 1915 and was posted to the 6th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers. (Not Royal at that stage), according to his Medical Report. The first line 6th Battalion had been overseas since September 1914 so he did not join them.

 

2/6th Battalion
Formed at Mossborough on 29 September 1914 as a home service (“second line”) unit.
8 February 1915 : attached to 197th Brigade, 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division. Moved to Crowborough in May 1915 and went on to Tunbridge Wells in October 1915 and Colchester in March 1916.
Landed at Le Havre 26 February 1917.

 

2/7th Battalion
Formed at Salford in August 1914 as a home service (“second line”) unit.
8 February 1915 : attached to 197th Brigade, 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division. Moved to Crowborough in May 1915 and went on to Tunbridge Wells in October 1915 and Colchester in March 1916.
Landed at Le Havre 28 February 1917.
 

2/8th Battalion
Formed at Salford on 29 September 1914 as a home service (“second line”) unit.
record same as 1/7th Bn. (NB should probably read 2/7th).
 

3/6th, 3/7th and 3/8th Battalions
All formed in March 1915, in Rochdale and Salford, as home service depot or training (“third line”) units.
Became Reserve Bns on 8 April 1916.
1 September 1916 : 3/6th absorbed 3/7th and 3/8th and renamed as 6th Reserve Battalion, in East Lancs Reserve Brigade.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/lancashire-fusiliers/

 

However what appears to be part of a non-standard statement of services shows him going to the 8th Battalion. The 1/8th had also been overseas since September 1914, so he either went to the 2/8th or 3/8th, (details above). But contrary to this is Conduct Sheet which shows him with "B" Company, 3/6th. The statement of service appears to have all been written at the same time so possibly might be a more unreliable source.

 

Prior to enlisting his trade was Master Window Cleaner and he was married. His next of kin was his wife of 11 Elmwood Road, Grove Street, Harrogate.

Initially employed with the Military Foot Police from the 10th February 1917, he was formally transferred on the 30th April 1917.

 

Having originally been found fit for service, on the 1st June 1917 he was medically downgraded to C11, so unfit for frontline service and probably overseas service as well.

 

His medical record shows he had been a naughty boy in the early summer of 1918 and was treated first at Ripon and then Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Around about the same time he was transferred to the Labour Corps. He went absent from Ripon for about six days at the end of August \ start September 1918. Having made Lance-Corporal during his time in the Army so far he was stripped of his rank and reverted to Private. He then served with 473 (Home Service) Company from 6th September 1918, 475 (Home Service) Company from 7th December 1918, and 503 (Home Service) Company from 16th December 1918. He was discharged on the 28th April 1919 to the Harrogate address.

 

In his Discharge records he states he only saw duty in England. He claims to have suffered Rheumatism as a result of exposure on the 7th March 1916 - treatment was initially at Harrogate infirmary. The Medical Board in March 1919 who looked at his case for a pension could find no medical evidence of it being an ongoing problem. His claim was rejected.

 

So with that as a starting point, what sort of areas were you looking to find out more ?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

[sadbrewer]

Brilliant work Peter!!

[DREEKS55]

Hi Peter - Thanks for the reply. That's exactly what I've got - a copy of his Discharge Document. I was hoping to find information on his parents - at the time of enlistment, he wasn't married and I would have expected his records to have details of his next of kin (parents, siblings???). Reason is, I'm researching his granddaughter's (a close friend of my wife) genealogy and have gone the Ancestry, Find My Past, National Records routes and have hit a brick wall on forebears, birth date, birthplace etc. I also visited the RHQ RMP at Southwick Park a few years ago with the same request but never heard from them. I'll keep looking!!!  Thanks once again. DREEKS55  

[PRC]

3 hours ago, DREEKS55 said:

I was hoping to find information on his parents - at the time of enlistment, he wasn't married and I would have expected his records to have details of his next of kin (parents, siblings???). Reason is, I'm researching his granddaughter's (a close friend of my wife) genealogy and have gone the Ancestry, Find My Past, National Records routes and have hit a brick wall on forebears, birth date, birthplace etc.

Ok, so if the service record and discharge record are to be believed he was 35 years and 3 months old when he enlisted on the 4th August 1915, so born cMay 1880. He was also married. Unfortunately that source doesn’t give a place of birth for him or a wifes’ name. All we have that’s non-military is an address in Harrogate and that he was a Master Window Cleaner.

 

As you are already no doubt aware aware there is no obvious birth for him in England & Wales. The most likely death record in the Civil index is that of a Harry B. West aged 76 which was recorded in the Rochdale area in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1956, so again points back to a birth c1880. Unfortunately no obvious match in the Civil Probate Calendar, so can’t confirm middle name and exact date of death. A death certificate should have his place & date of birth, or at least what the informant believed them to be.

 

He also doesn’t seem to want to put in an appearance on the Census returns since his birth. The address given in Harrogate would fall within the Knaresborough Civil Registration of Yorkshire.

 

A check of marriages in England & Wales for a Harry B. West brings up one interesting match – a Harry B. West married a Margaret E. England in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1918. Going back through those surviving Army records there is nothing to actually say he was married at the time he enlisted, only at best that he was married by the time he was discharged, so the marriage of Harry to Margaret could be a contender.

 

The marriage certificate would show the Grooms fathers’ name, occupation, and whether he was still alive. Given the age of Harry Butcher West at that point, it is unlikely he was still living with his parents, but just in case worth checking out the grooms stated place of residence prior to marriage.

 

Likely child of that marriage appear to be a Violet E. West whose birth was also registered in the Knaresborough District in Q4 1918.

Looking for Violet on the 1939 National Register brings up an interesting household living at 57 Cutgate Road, Rochdale.

The first occupant of the household was a Henry West, a married man born 22nd May 1882, and a Cinema Fireman.

The second occupant was a Margaret West, a married woman, (and almost certainly Henrys’ wife), born 15th May 1900 and carrying out unpaid domestic duties.

The third occupant was a Victor H. West, unmarried, an Engineers Clerk born 24th April 1920.

Fourth and last was a Violet E. West, unmarried, a Printers Label Puncher, born 8th September 1918. Violet would subsequently change her surname, probably on marriage, to Lamb & Rush. Rush is the last surname shown and the amendment is dated 10.10.46.

 

So it's still speculative. Dates of birth weren’t verified or cross referenced at the time, and while some were subquently amended & corrected, particularly post-war when the 1939 Register became the Central Registry of the NHS, it cannot be known for sure how many weren’t.

 

Occupant 1 is Henry rather than Harry and is approximately two years younger then the age calculated from his surviving service records – neither are show stoppers when you bear in mind neither source was verified. And of course the fact that a Harry Butcher West enlisted at Rochdale in 1915, a Henry West was living at Rochdale in 1939 and a Harry B West died at Rochdale in 1956 could all just be coincidences.

 

For occupant 2 there is a 10 month old Margaret E. England, born Harrogate, who was recorded living in the household of her widowed Grandmother, Caroline England at 133 Skipton Road, Harrogate, on the 1901 Census of England & Wales. Among Carolines’ children is a 20 year old unmarried Caroline S. England, an ‘Artist’ (Photographic). On the 1911 Census the 10 year old Margaret Ethel England was living with what was probably her stepfather William Allincon(? – tbc but that is how it has been transcribed) and her biological mother Caroline Sarah Allincon at 1 Bankwell Yard, High Bondgate, Bishop Auckland, County Durham. The couple state they have been married 11 years, although an earlier entry in single figures has been erased and then written over.

 

I did a bit more more checking, looking at the other children recorded and then looking for birth records and it would appear the surname is actually Allinson.

 

But still no closer to identifying where Harry Butcher West came from before he stepped through the door of the recruiting office on the 4th August 1915. Even though the medical report is only a copy, the fact that no place of birth is listed and the relevant sheets relating to his attestation have gone, all tend to suggest he was either brought up in an institution or his birth was registered with a different surname.

 

For now if you believe the correct marriage and death have been identified then the way forward might be to obtain the relevant certificates – if you haven’t already done so. No guarantee that it will get you much further forward, as once again the information isn’t verified – yes in order to go through a civil or church marriage in the UK Harry should have had to present a birth certificate, but there is no way of knowing if he presented a valid one or simply signed a declaration that place & date of birth was not known.

 

Sorry I can’t be more helpful and apologies if any of that is a red herring.

 

Good luck with your search,

Peter

[DREEKS55]

Hello Peter,

Thanks for all the info. I'm pretty sure you're correct in your inference that his formative years are recorded (maybe??) under another name - there was something that his granddaughter mentioned that seems to corroborate this - rumour has it that his parents were "lost at sea", so maybe he was brought up by someone (benefactor??) in the West household. 

Good research though!!!!

DREEKS55