Lance Corporal Hampson 2/5th LF - KIA 15/08/1916

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I apologise in advance for the length of this post; my excuse is that, in my amateur way, I have tried to get as far as I can before raising the query on the forum.

Some of the members of this forum were kind enough to help me with one of the only two examples in my grandfather’s diary where he has mentioned someone as dying on a certain day where there is no corresponding entry in the CWGC’s records. The first example was J. Turner https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/282742-private-john-turner-25th-lf-dod-1291916-signaller/

 

This is the second one, which I am afraid is even more difficult to resolve.

 

My grandfather describes how on 15 August 1916, after a torrid time on the front line in the Somme area, what was left of the Battalion (the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers) had been relieved and were on their way to Méricourt to rest. They had reached their Transport Lines when:

… the Brigade instructed us to find a party of one officer and 60 other ranks to return from where we had come in order to do a job of work - the message had been delayed. Fancy those fellows having to march back about 4 miles, dead tired. Packman [Lieutenant J.B. Packman] took them, as he had seen very little of the fighting. I was sorry for my men, several of whom were lost. Lance Corporal Hampson was killed, while Private Bent was wounded.

 

My query is about Lance Corporal Hampson, as I can find only one reference in the CWGC’s records to any Hampson of the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers dying at any point during WW1, namely Private Samson Hampson on 9 September 1916 (incidentally the same action in which my grandfather himself was wounded). I think it rather unlikely that my grandfather would have confused Private Samson Hampson’s death with a death in a working party on 15 August 1916. I have also tried looking through all the names of 2/5th LF killed on or about 15 August in case there might have been a Hempson, Hamson, Hanson etc.

 

My grandfather had already mentioned a Lance Corporal Hampson in his diary several times in warm terms, describing him as having “everlasting pluck”, and mentioning his involvement in several engagements in No Man’s Land. The last mention of him was when he was wounded in a raid on 28 June 1916, when he appears on the casualty list in the Battalion War Diary with Service no 2841. The MIC for this man, Thomas Hampson, which describes him simply as a Private, shows that he was later in the Liverpool Regiment. It is possible that he recovered from the wound on 28 June 1916 in time to take part in the action in August 1916, but it does seem to be fairly certain that this Hampson did not die in the working party in view of his re-assignment to the Liverpool Regiment.

 

There seem to me to be 2 possibilities; either my grandfather has written the name Lance Corporal Hampson, when he should have written another name, or Lance Corporal Hampson was missing, believed killed, on 15 August 1916, but subsequently, unbeknown to my grandfather, was found alive.

In the post about J. Turner I was shown how to search in the ICRC Historical Archives for a repatriated man, but I cannot see in those records any Hampson who was, or might have been, this man.

 

Nor can I see in the CWGC records that any Lance Corporals of the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers died between, say, 15 and 20 August 2016, though two 2/5^th Corporals died on 15 August 1916, a Robinson Hulton, Service no 3097, who is buried at Amiens, and a James Kershaw, Service no 200086, who is commemorated at Thiepval (I know from the J. Turner post that this man’s 6 figure number suggests that he was logged as missing to begin with, which is also consistent with his commemoration at Thiepval).

Maybe my grandfather confused Lance Corporal Hampson with one of these, but who knows? They were Corporals rather than Lance Corporals, and he does not mention either of them elsewhere in his diary.

 

By 15 August 1916 my grandfather was acting CO of ”Z” Company of the 2/5^th (sometimes referred to as “D” Company).From the passage quoted above, it is certain that the dead man was in his Company, but I don’t think that we have any way of knowing which individuals were in which Company at the relevant time, do we?

Unless anyone can suggest anywhere else I can look to find the name of a Lance Corporal of the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers who died in a working party on or shortly after 15 August 1916, I am afraid that this one may have to remain a complete mystery.

 

I should just add that I have looked in the Battalion, Brigade, and Divisional War Diaries, and none are any real help. The 164^th Brigade War Diary has the following entry for 12.15am on 14 August 1916:

Received orders that Brigade would move to MÉRICOURT – the Division being relieved by 3^rd Division … 1 officer and 50 OR of 2/5 Lan Fus remained in Dublin Trench for working party duties and to rejoin 6 am 15/8/16

 

This may mean that my grandfather’s dates are a day adrift, or 12.25am on 14 August is in fact the early hours of 15 August. In any event, the entry does not take matters any further as there is no report about what happened to the party that remained behind. According to my grandfather, Packman was back with the rest of the Battalion on 16 August 1916.

 

In the Divisional War Diary there is an order dated 12 August 1916, to the effect that by 5.00am on 14 August 1916:

The  165^th Infantry Brigade and units of RE and 1/4^th S. Lancs R. now attached to it in the line will be relieved by the 166^th Infantry Brigade , 1 Coy 1/4^th S. Lancs R. and 2/1^st West Lancashire Field Coy RE (less 2 Sections)

 

Then a separate paragraph adds:

The 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers, 164^th Infantry Brigade, will move tonight to the Dublin and Casement trenches to be available for the provision of working parties. For tactical purposes this Battalion will be under the orders of the Brigadier general Commanding Infantry Brigade in the line.

 

I rather think that the latter passage relates to the working parties that the 2/5^th were engaged on on 13/14 August, rather than 14/15 August. In his diary for these two days my grandfather writes:

13.08.16: We were engaged on working parties and carrying parties all day. The Battalion had been brought up to dig a new trench, about 70 yards from the German Line. We were near the Battery positions, which was not very pleasant. The parties were working shifts, and I had plenty to do, as I was responsible for seeing that the parties were detailed, and kept to time of programme. The parties were from “W”, “X”, “Y”, and “Z” Companies - practically the whole Battalion, comprising 450 other ranks - except for four small parties of mine, the Tunnelling Company, who worked under the 1/1st West Lancashire REs on the Maricourt to Briqueterie road.

14.08.16: The working parties were out again. We were shelled intermittently during the day … Kenderdine and Cooper re-organised the party and went forward, but couldn’t do much work, as they were shelled out. “Z” Company were more fortunate, and dug for about six hours. Both Royal Engineers’ Officers were killed. We were very busy all night, and very tired.

 

I have had a look in the War Diary for the 166th Brigade for this period including 15 August 1916 and not found anything of interest.

Did the 2/1st West Lancashire Field Company and/or 1/1^st West Lancashire Field Company keep their own diaries? I don’t seem to be able to find any on the National Archives site.

 

There is just one possible avenue that occurs to me, which is records of Dressing Stations in the area, but I don’t know where to find these. My grandfather mentions Dressing Stations in both Dublin and Casement Trench.

 

As I said at the beginning, if anyone is still reading, I do apologise for the length of this post, but, as you can see, I have got as far as I can with my rather limited knowledge of how to research this sort of thing! Any help will be gratefully received!

[ss002d6252]

There's nothing in the effects which indicates that Hampson was MIA before he died - looks like he died on 9 Sep 1916. SDGW states that he was KIA.

 

Craig

Edited 6 July , 2020 by ss002d6252

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Hi Craig - even the length of my post couldn't daunt you! And it seems I have missed a key point somewhere, somehow - that's amateurs for you!

Here is the MIC which I thought said that Thomas Hampson 2841 transferred to the Liverpool Regiment, and also didn't have any reference to him having been killed in action. Where have I gone wrong?!! Also, could you give me a link to the CWGC entry. Thank you very much

[ss002d6252]

36 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Hi Craig - even the length of my post couldn't daunt you! And it seems I have missed a key point somewhere, somehow - that's amateurs for you!

Here is the MIC which I thought said that Thomas Hampson 2841 transferred to the Liverpool Regiment, and also didn't have any reference to him having been killed in action. Where have I gone wrong?!! Also, could you give me a link to the CWGC entry. Thank you very much

 

Samson Hampson died 9 Sep 1916 (KIA - attached from 11th Bn) however Thomas was transferred to the Liverpool Regiment and appears to have survived the war.

 

Craig

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thanks Craig - I'm glad I'm not quite as off the rails as I at first thought - I think I might have given up altogether!

Anyway, I don't think that Samson Hampson (what a wonderful name) is my man, for the reasons given, and it appears that Thomas Hampson 2841 is not my man either - I'm glad he survived, as he seems from my Grandad's diary to have been a great character.

If I am to take this further, I think it might be by learning what Company Corporal Hulton and/or Corporal Kershaw were in, finding the War Diaries of the 1/1st or 2/1st West Lancashire Field Company RE, or finding records from a dressing station where the man might have been treated, all of which are beyond my capabilities.

I'm not hopeful, but I never cease to be amazed by the expertise of members on this site!

Edited 9 July , 2020 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Apologies, as I know that this is not the most interesting of threads, but I thought I should just record that I now realise that the 1/1st and 2/1st West Lancashire Field Companies RE are otherwise known as the 419th and 422nd Field Companies RE respectively, and therefore I have now found and considered their War Diaries for the relevant period, but there is no reference to any working party suffering loss of life in or near Dublin Trench on or about 15th August 1916, or even to the loss of 2 RE officers on or about 14th August 1916, so I think that the 2/5th LF must have been working with some other unit or units at the relevant times.

It looks as though I will have to resign myself to not being able to get any further with understanding my grandfather's mysterious reference to Lance Corporal Hampson having died ias a result of having been allocated to working party on 15th August 1916.

On 06/07/2020 at 12:55, ss002d6252 said:

Samson Hampson died 9 Sep 1916 (KIA - attached from 11th Bn)

Craig, if you are still reading this - and I fully understand if you are not - I know that I rather dismissed Samson Hampson earlier, but I don't suppose that there is any reference in anything that you have access to to him having been a Lance Corporal and or in "D" or "Z" Company of the 2/5th LF is there?

[ss002d6252]

13 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

On 06/07/2020 at 12:55, ss002d6252 said:

 

Craig, if you are still reading this - and I fully understand if you are not - I know that I rather dismissed Samson Hampson earlier, but I don't suppose that there is any reference in anything that you have access to to him having been a Lance Corporal and or in "D" or "Z" Company of the 2/5th LF is there?

Nothing obvious that I can see.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

On 06/07/2020 at 12:55, ss002d6252 said:

Samson Hampson died 9 Sep 1916 (KIA - attached from 11th Bn

Thanks to the Western Front Association & Fold3:

A Pension Card is available for Samson HAMPSON, 25234, Pte, 11th Lancashire Fusiliers  https://www.fold3.com/image/668833257?terms=hampson,samson YoB 1891 - KiA 9-9-16

And a Pension Card as Samson HAMPTON, 25234, Pte, Lancashire Fusiliers https://www.fold3.com/image/668833561?terms=hampton,samson 

So LFP, as you and Craig have said, certainly not looking like a valid August casualty for you

 

On 06/07/2020 at 12:55, ss002d6252 said:

Thomas was transferred to the Liverpool Regiment and appears to have survived the war.

A Pension Ledger is available for Thomas HAMPSON, 381838, Pte, Liverpool Regiment https://www.fold3.com/image/643828296?terms=hampson,381738 - Discharge 20.9.18 Disability for GSW Rt Arm, Att. [30%] commencing 21.9.18

 

LFP - I know this hasn't answered the main thrust of your OP but thought might be of interest to you/others [now or in the future] - and possibly offer HAMPTON as an alternative surname that might be an avenue to explore [though  after a quick trawl I couldn't see anything really obvious].

:-) M

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 11/07/2020 at 13:13, ss002d6252 said:

Nothing obvious that I can see.

Craig

On 11/07/2020 at 14:14, Matlock1418 said:

I know this hasn't answered the main thrust of your OP but thought might be of interest to you/others [now or in the future]

 

Many thanks, Craig for checking again, and to you, Matlock1418, for your contribution. I agree that there is at least a possibility that this thread may be of interest to relatives searching the name of Hampson. In fact, even though it does not answer my original question, I was very interested in what you had to say about what subsequently happened to Thomas Hampson 2841.

As I have already said, my grandfather refers to this man as a Lance Corporal in June 1916, and so does the Battalion War Diary in its casualty list for 28 June 1916. I am not a member of Fold3, and have already exhausted my free trial period with them, but both the MIC in the National Archives, and what I can see of the Fold 3 document to which you have provided a link (which I understand relates to his discharge and disability pension) refer to him as a private. I presume therefore that he was only a temporary Lance Corporal in June 1916, and that he had to revert to his substantive rank of private when he was re-allocated to the Liverpool Regiment.

My grandfather had personal experience of this, as he was a temporary Captain when wounded with the 2/5th LF on the Somme in September 1916. When fit enough to return to France in June 1917 he was re-assigned to the 1/5th LF, and had to revert to his substantive rank, which was not one, but two, grades lower, being 2nd Lieutenant. Needless to say, he was not too delighted about this, particularly as, as he says:

The annoying part of it was that fellows who remained with the 5th Reserve Battalion [i.e. presumably others who had been wounded abroad and sent back to Britain, and now, for whatever reason, remained in Britain on Home Service rather than being sent back to the front] still retained their rank.

My grandfather had a lot of time for Thomas Hampson, and clearly considered him to be a very useful member of the unit (I am sure that it must be this man he refers to throughout, not Samson, as he would normally use first names or numbers to distinguish between men if he thought that there was any likelihood of confusion), so it is surprising that he was not again promoted to Lance Corporal with the Liverpools, but perhaps he was again wounded before that could happen.

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I presume therefore that he was only a temporary Lance Corporal in June 1916, and that he had to revert to his substantive rank of private when he was re-allocated to the Liverpool Regiment.

As many other threads/post describe - Lance Corporal was normally only an Appointment granted to Privates [often by the CO] - more like a temporary job/functionary title than/not a substantive rank as it appears you know, so reversion under such circumstances does not seem at all unlikely.

:-) M

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

As many other threads/post describe - Lance Corporal was normally only an Appointment granted to Privates [often by the CO] - more like a temporary job/functionary title

Thank you Matlock 1418, I have now searched "Rank of Lance Corporal" on the site, and found several of the posts that you mention describing how "Lance Corporal" was often a temporary appointment rather than a formal rank.

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Thank you Matlock 1418, I have now searched "Rank of Lance Corporal" on the site, and found several of the posts that you mention describing how "Lance Corporal" was often a temporary appointment rather than a formal rank.

It wasn't an infantry rank until after ww2, it was always an appointment until then

 

Craig