Post War Date of Death ?

[Mike999]

I noticed that today's "Remembered Today" was: "4736 Company Quartermaster Serjeant Arthur Richard PAGE M M and Bar D Coy. 17th Bn. Kings Royal Rifle Corps who died 05/07/1920 EAST FINCHLEY CEMETERY AND ST. MARYLEBONE CREMATORIUM United Kingdom". Date of death was 1920, does this mean he died as a result of wounds/illness contracted before the end of WW1 or simply that he served in WW1 and died of some unrelated cause in 1920?

 

I'm aware a lot of soldiers died after WW1 of conditions they picked up during the war (my own great granddad was gassed in WW1 and never fully recovered and died as a result a few years later but he is not on any war memorial or CWGC cemetery). So how did they decide the cut off line for those included on say war memorials versus those who were not even though their condition was caused by WW1.

 

Hope that make sense. Many thanks. Mike

[BarbaraG]

Might find this helpful

 

http://www.infromthecold.org/war_grave_criteria.asp

[Keith_history_buff]

The Commission commemorates those who died (i) in service or (ii) of causes attributable to service. Personnel who had been discharged from, or retired from, the military before their deaths during the same qualifying periods of an injury or illness, caused by or exacerbated by their service during the same qualifying period. These cases qualify only if it is PROVEN to the authorities' satisfaction that death was service attributable. The qualifying period is 4th August 1914 to 31st August 1921

[Michelle Young]

Also here on the GWF

and here on the CWGC site 

Michelle 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Mike999,

If you are either (i) a member of the Western Front Association and have access to the Pension Card dataset, or (ii) you are a Fold3 subscriber and can access the dataset in the same manner, you quite often find cards for these men who passed away, and a description of their ailment. (It's against the forum rules to directly ask for others to perform lookups.)

I have found the dataset to be very illuminating in this regard, when researching men who died after discharge. In addition, the NAM Register of Soldiers' Effects (on Ancestry) also has some ledger entries for those who died after discharge, too.

Best wishes
Keith
 

[MaxD]

The foregoing relates to the CWGC.  Local war memorials are a different kettle of fish.  These were established by local committees who invited bereaved families to send the names in of people they considered should be commemorated on the village/church/town etc memorial.   I doubt whether the many many committees up and down the country all used the same criteria - a glance at newspaper reports of the time suggest not!  (The reports of the wrangling in committee rooms  makes for interesting reading!)

 

Max

[Mike999]

Wow - well thanks a lot for excellent information in such a short period. I am so pleased I found this forum.

 

I have many times travelled to the Ypres battlefields as my great uncle is buried there. As I said above I had a great grandfather gassed and died a few years after the end of WW1 as a result (he never recovered and was weakened physically by it). I also had another great uncle who was kicked in the head by a mule (carrying ammunition). He was invalided out of the army as a result as he suffered some brain injury. He returned home but his personality had become violent towards his wife so he was institutionalised but returned home for trial periods but the same behaviour was exhibited again so he then stayed in the institution for the rest of his life. I think in total I had 6 "close" relatives I know of served in WW1. One in RGA and killed by an enemy shell. Two wounded (gassed/kicked in head by a mule) as described above but though they survived never had a normal life again. And I believe two returned home (albeit no doubt changed by the experience).

 

I am looking forward to learning a lot from you guys. I have become quite sad at the thought that knowledge/interest in ww1 and the human cost is disappearing fast; glad to see such depth of knowledge here.

 

(To Keith-history_buff - I'll follow up your suggested records. I find it most annoying that I have to pay to get some IWM records and why are others are not scanned and available foc on line.)

 

Anyway thanks again - what a great bunch you are :-)

[Mike999]

29 minutes ago, MaxD said:

The foregoing relates to the CWGC.  Local war memorials are a different kettle of fish.  These were established by local committees who invited bereaved families to send the names in of people they considered should be commemorated on the village/church/town etc memorial.   I doubt whether the many many committees up and down the country all used the same criteria - a glance at newspaper reports of the time suggest not!  (The reports of the wrangling in committee rooms  makes for interesting reading!)

 

Max

 

I'd be interested if you could post links to any such wrangling. I find peripheral ww1 aspects like that fascinating as it gives you an insight in to the thinking of people at the time.

[BarbaraG]

I like a bargain - might I recommend Western Front Association Membership.

 

I'm using ANCESTRY with free access at the moment (use my Library Card). 

And as added above there are Free Downloads from TNA.

 

Add names of your WW1 folk and you'll get lots of possible links to follow and very helpful suggestions. I'm quite intrigued by your great uncle and the mule - one of so many casualties in addition to those killed outright. 

 

Great photographs by the way 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/111987-then-and-now-90-years-ago-and-today/page/39/?tab=comments#comment-2909057

 

Edited 5 July , 2020 by BarbaraG

[Mike999]

20 hours ago, BarbaraG said:

I like a bargain - might I recommend Western Front Association Membership.

 

I'm using ANCESTRY with free access at the moment (use my Library Card). 

And as added above there are Free Downloads from TNA.

 

Add names of your WW1 folk and you'll get lots of possible links to follow and very helpful suggestions. I'm quite intrigued by your great uncle and the mule - one of so many casualties in addition to those killed outright. 

 

Great photographs by the way 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/111987-then-and-now-90-years-ago-and-today/page/39/?tab=comments#comment-2909057

Thanks I will follow up your suggestions when I get some time.

 

Re my great uncle and the mule, not much to say really. Although I was wrong, it's my great great uncle (not great uncle)! My mother's mother's mother's brother. It was on the Western front. As I understand it they used horses and mules (maybe other animals too) to carry ammunition forward (I've seen pictures of them with 18pdr shells slung over their backs. As I said before at some point he got kicked in the head. Maybe he was pushing it from behind, not paying attention or anyone of 100 other scenarios. Sadly my mother isn't as interested in this stuff as I am so she never asked the detailed questions I would have done! You can imagine the family being pleased he came home alive only to find that his brain injury made him unstable on and off. Sometimes when he appeared to be normal he was allowed home but after a while he'd be violent etc and would have to go back to the institution where ultimately he had to remain and was never allowed home again. I shall find his name and look him up when I have some time to see if there are any details about his war service and pension using the records suggested above. Many thanks.

[MaxD]

23 hours ago, Mike999 said:

I'd be interested if you could post links to any such wrangling

 

I was looking at a number of samples of newspaper reports in the 1920s on Findmypast:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/british-newspapers?date=1920-01-01&date_offsetdate=1929-12-31&modifiedfacets=true&exactnames=true&exactkeywords=false&keywords=war memorial names

 

Max

 

[BarbaraG]

On 06/07/2020 at 19:23, Mike999 said:

Thanks I will follow up your suggestions when I get some time.

 

Re my great uncle and the mule, not much to say really. Although I was wrong, it's my great great uncle (not great uncle)! My mother's mother's mother's brother. It was on the Western front. As I understand it they used horses and mules (maybe other animals too) to carry ammunition forward (I've seen pictures of them with 18pdr shells slung over their backs. As I said before at some point he got kicked in the head. Maybe he was pushing it from behind, not paying attention or anyone of 100 other scenarios. Sadly my mother isn't as interested in this stuff as I am so she never asked the detailed questions I would have done! You can imagine the family being pleased he came home alive only to find that his brain injury made him unstable on and off. Sometimes when he appeared to be normal he was allowed home but after a while he'd be violent etc and would have to go back to the institution where ultimately he had to remain and was never allowed home again. I shall find his name and look him up when I have some time to see if there are any details about his war service and pension using the records suggested above. Many thanks.

 

You might be interested to read several threads re. John Simpson Kikpatrick.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/57787-national-heroes-from-ww1/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-502512

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/621936/kirkpatrick,-john-simpson/

Edited 8 July , 2020 by BarbaraG

[Mike999]

On 06/07/2020 at 19:23, Mike999 said:

Re my great uncle and the mule, not much to say really. Although I was wrong, it's my great great uncle (not great uncle)! My mother's mother's mother's brother. It was on the Western front. As I understand it they used horses and mules (maybe other animals too) to carry ammunition forward (I've seen pictures of them with 18pdr shells slung over their backs. As I said before at some point he got kicked in the head. Maybe he was pushing it from behind, not paying attention or anyone of 100 other scenarios. Sadly my mother isn't as interested in this stuff as I am so she never asked the detailed questions I would have done! You can imagine the family being pleased he came home alive only to find that his brain injury made him unstable on and off. Sometimes when he appeared to be normal he was allowed home but after a while he'd be violent etc and would have to go back to the institution where ultimately he had to remain and was never allowed home again. I shall find his name and look him up when I have some time to see if there are any details about his war service and pension using the records suggested above. Many thanks.

 

Well below is a picture of my great great uncle Edmund Phillips of Bradford. He looks very mild; the kick in the head changed his nature for the worse as I said above.

 

Also attached are pictures of Belle Vue Studio, Manningham Road, Bradford where the photo was taken (also the same place today which is now a muslim bookshop, I expect that would be unfathomable to him in his day). For me it is interesting to see the places that our forefathers went to.