RHA and RAF in Egypt and Palestine

[john elvidge]

How many units of the RHA and RFA served in Egypt and Palestine from 1916 to 1918. Were there any battles on Turley or Bulgaria. Did the troops go via Alexandria or come back via Istambul.

[MaxD]

Welcome to the forum John.

 

Your question is very wide and is not simply answered.   If you Google "Turkey WW1" (you typed Turley) and "Bulgaria WW1" you will find that both countries were involved in large measure.  The normal shipping route to Egypt was to Alexandria, Istanbul was in an enemy country until the end of the war so if any did pass through there it would have been after the war.

 

This piece https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/the-campaign-in-egypt-and-palestine/ lists the divisions that fought in that theatre.  If you take each one of these listed divisions and use the search box on Longlongtrail you will find the artillery units that went with that division listed.  Example -  the first division shown is 42nd Division, that division had 4 RFA brigades, one heavy mortar battery and 3 medium mortar batteries (there were also and ammunition column and an RGA battery) but you haven't asked about those. 

 

If you end up with a number, say 100 brigades - where does that get you?

 

Is there something specific you are looking for?

 

Max

[john elvidge]

Max, many thanks for your swift reply to my equiry. My father was born in 1896 and was called up for service on 8 May 1916 for the R.H. & R.F.A. We have his certificate of demobilisation dated 27 December 1919. His record number is Z180134. He was a Signaller and served overseas. We have a photo of him wearing a Royal Artillery cap badge. We also had photos of him in Cairo and on the Nile, and also ( presumably after the end of hostilities) in Istambul. He told us that he was billeted in Scutari. He also said that he was on horseback in Bulgaria. Sadly, we did not ask any more questions about this, and we simply would like to know more about this rather forgotten field of war. We have tried to trace his records but Kew do not have any. Are there any books on this topic or how further can we research this?   John

[David Porter]

1 hour ago, john elvidge said:

His record number is Z180134.

 

Welcome to the Forum John,

 

That does not appear to be a Regimental Number for someone joining the RH & RFA in May 1916. Are there other numbers on the certificate? His name would be a great help too.

[john elvidge]

Thanks for the reply. I should have added his regimental number which is on the demobilization certificate. It is 255,575, rank Signaller. His full name was Allan Elvidge. He attested on 9 December 2015 for the R.H. & R.F.A., was transferred to the reserve, and was then called up for service on 8.5.16 for the R.H. & R.F.A. He remained in this throughout. His place of rejoining in the case of emergency was Charlton. The certificate is signed by the officer i/c of R.H. & R.F.A. records, at Woolwich.  His record number for R.H.F records is Z180,134.

 

Can I say how impressed I am by the speed of these reponses!  John

[David Porter]

I think you should double check the call up date. 255575 fits in with call up in May 1918. I can find no medal index card so it would appear he went to Egypt after November 1918. His training as a signaller would have taken extra time over that of a gunner or driver so this is not a surprise. If it is any help, the only units in Istanbul (Constantinople as it was) were part of 28th Division under the British Army of the Black Sea which was itself created out of the British Salonica Force.

[MaxD]

Others may do better that I but I find no record of him.  You may not know that some 60% or so of service records were lost to bombing in WW2 so not unusual to find nothing in that line.  Medal records do survive but I find nothing there - no medal records means no war overseas service in a theatre of war so he may fall into that category.

 

I was about to suggest the same as David.  

 

Max

 

 

[MaxD]

Would you like to post a pic of the certificate you are looking at?

 

Max

 

 

Edited 6 July , 2020 by MaxD

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, David Porter said:

If it is any help, the only units in Istanbul (Constantinople as it was) were part of 28th Division under the British Army of the Black Sea which was itself created out of the British Salonica Force.

By 1922 this force had expanded somewhat, but alas, the OH booklet for the Occupation of Constantinople 1918-1923 is very light on specific unit details

 

30^th March 1920 242^nd Brigade formed under Brig-Gen Montague-Bates

1 British Battalion

3 Indian Battalions

plus 20^th Hussars, artillery, engineers, pioneers etc

Stationed around Ismid, covering Scutari & Haidar Pasha

 

28^th September 1920 as part of redistribution 242^nd Brigade came under 28^th Division who were

Section III: Scutari & Kadikeui (south of Scutari)

which included in the General Reserve was 1 Battery

also, along Asian shore of Sea of Marmora, between Scutari and Gulf of Ismid

at Tuzla, 1 Howitzer Battery

 

During the Chanak Crisis of 1922 reinforcements were pulled in from all around the Mediterranean

including from Egypt, 2 batteries of the XVII Brigade RFA and 2 batteries of of the V Pack Brigade

“The total force on the 18^th October (1922) consisted of 15 infantry battalions, with three 18-pdr Batteries and six howitzer batteries (one 3.7-inch) of which the 83^rd Brigade was on the Asiatic side, with headquarters at Haidar Pasha, and the 84^th & 85^th Brigades at Chanak, with two Guards Battalions from the UK on transports. Supported by the Navy (with three aircraft carriers) and RAF...approx. 70 aircraft.....”

[john elvidge]

Thank you all for your help. The regimental number is definitely 255,575. But as my father never mentioned any actual fighting, perhaps you are right that he was only sent out after the armistice in 1918 and spent the time after he was called up in training in the UK. The discharge certificate in the section of medals and decorations awared during present engagements is left blank, which we always thought puzzling, particularly as it goes on to say that he "has served  Overseas on Active Service".  As I understand it, any one serving in a active war zone would have been awarded two medals. I have a photo of the discharge certificate, but I am not clear how to attach it to this forum.

[MaxD]

John

When you start a new post, down bottom left of the box is a paper clip with "Drag files here to attach or choose files"

 

Simply do one or the other  dragging your file from where you have it save or "choose files" and click on it in your files.

 

Looking at war diaries of the end/post war period, I counted 5 RFA brigades, 3, 31, 54 114 and 130 staying there until 1919 (when the diaries end) http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q=28+division+artillery+WO+95+Part+V+Divisional

These though are not digitised.

 

Max

[john elvidge]

Max, thanks, This is the discharge certificate.  I hadn't realised that there had been an army of occupation if Maceconia and Turkey after the end of the war. Perhaps this could explain the reference to Bulgaria?

[David Porter]

Thanks for the photo John, it certainly says called up May 8, 1916, but the records would suggest 1918. I'm at a loss to explain the error, but the number he was given certainly did not appear that early. The only other option is that he was transferred from another army branch, but that should appear in the given certificate. The Class Z reserve to which he was transferred was abolished at the end of March 1920.

[MaxD]

I do find some near numbers that have attestation dates in 1915/1916.

 

255578 Lachenal enlisted 2 12 1915.  To 56 Reserve Bty May 1916 actual service UK May to Dec 1918

255580 Page attested May 1916 mobilized May 1918 56 Reserve Brigade (on discharge??) discharged Jan 1919, UK service

255566 Briggs (re-) enlisted May 1918 discharged Sep 1918

255560 Moss May 1918  UK service to 12 1919

2555570 Rowlinson

255565 Small 

 

David - would you have the time to look at the first two at least (Findmypast), they have 1915/16 period of service then 1918/19 but I confess to not making sense of them.

 

John - Bulgaria was an ally in the fighting earlier in Salonika but I also recall one of its ports being used by transport across the Black Sea from that area of deployment.

 

Minor point - Both the RHA and the RFA were administered by a single record office, hence the title RH and RFA - he was only in one of them (at a time!!)

 

Max 

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, MaxD said:

I do find some near numbers that have attestation dates in 1915/1916.

Max,

These men may originally have attested 1915 or 1916 but were posted next day to Reserve and not allocated the RFA number at that time. It was only when these men mobilized to the RFA in May 1918 that this number series was used. ie as David said, it is May 1918 !!

 

Charlie

 

edit- I'd looked at some of those men and noted that they seemed to be late mobilized because of health reasons originally.  By May 1918 things were getting desperate. But I note Elvidge was discharged health category AI. Why was his mobilization so late ? Was he in reserve employment ?

Edited 6 July , 2020 by charlie962

[MaxD]

That's right Charlie, I noted the long period between attestation and much later mobilisation.  There didn't seem to be any pattern though although I also saw the health reasons and most were younger men..

 

As so often, there don't seem to be enough good surviving records to say much apart from enlisted early, not mobilised until much later, took part late 1918 into 1919 in the Black Sea campaign.  His attestation date (5 Dec 1915) suggests a Derby Scheme man.

 

John - have a look at https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/ which explains the Derby Scheme where, very simplistically, men signed on, went to the reserve and waited to be mobilised.  What was your father's occupation?

 

Max

 

[john elvidge]

Max,thanks for referring me to the Derby Scheme of which I was totally unaware. Very interesting. My father was an engineering mechanical draughtsman, and was employed as such by the Post Office from 29.12.13 to 23.11.14, when he resigned to take up another position ( unknown). So, possibly, his was a reserved occupation.

 

On his return from overseas he worked for Kestner, chemical engineers, and I have a glowing reference for him from May 1924 saying he had worked for them for the last five or six years. He continued to work in this field for Distillers till his retirement.

 

I have come across a photo of him when he was on service, in case it gives any clues. He is on the left of the photo. It does seem to show that he was somewhere hot, and even had some kind of orderly.

 

Is there a good book on the Black Sea campaign around and after the date of the armistice?  

[David Porter]

John,

 

Your father appears in the Absent Voters Lists for 1918 and 1919. In both cases he is linked to 58 Church Lane, Tooting, along with Harold Gilbert Elvidge who is a 2nd officer in the Mercantile Marine. What is interesting is that, in 1919, they give Allan as 4th Reserve Battery which was in 1B Reserve Brigade, Forest Row, Sussex. Most signals training would have been at Swanage but it moved to Crowborough in October 1918. So it looks like a lot of his training was in Sussex.

[MaxD]

The British Army of the Black Sea, which as David pointed out early on, is the term that should produce some reading material but which stubbornly refuses to do so!  Searching this forum and Wiki for bibliography hasn't produced anything that looks as if it would fit the bill.  Tellingly, I picked up somewhere that the British Official History was supposed to have included a volume to be written covering the post Salonika period but this was never written (or completed).  Everything seems to end in that area in September 1918 except for the note that part of 28th Division went on.

 

Failing all else there are the war diaries at the National Archives that I linked to earlier.  You need to click on the title to see the full list of who is covered.  You'd have to visit.  Individual soldiers are almost never mentioned but they would give a flavour.  As we don't know which unit he served with, copying, even by one of the copying services that do it for about a tenth of the price of that charged by Kew, would be throwing money away.

 

Perhaps others will be able to advise on background?  

 

Max

 

[David Porter]

2 hours ago, MaxD said:

Perhaps others will be able to advise on background?

 

There was an official history but not published until 2010 - https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/occupation-of-constantinople/

As far as I can tell there were three RFA brigades involved, 54th, 98th and 130th.

On October 26, 1919, 98th Brigade RFA absorbed 54th Brigade RFA.

There is a little about 130th Brigade RFA in this thread. 

 

 

[MaxD]

2 hours ago, David Porter said:

There was an official history but not published until 2010 - https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/occupation-of-constantinople/

 

Thank you David. Whatever I read about the "missing" Edmonds volume must have been pre-2010 (or from a source less knowledgeable than your good self!).  What I have totally missed is the involvement of 27 Division as well as 28 Division. 

 

John

 

Look closely at the photos on the thread cited by David - you never know your father may be among them!  The addition of 27 Division lengthens the list of possible brigades for your father, additional diaries here:

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=27+division+turkey+WO+95+artillery

 

Max

[MaureenE]

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Norperforce also includes  the Army of the Black Sea,  with links to  online articles, theses and books.

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Norperforce

 

There is nothing about Bulgaria, however.

 

Cheers

Maureen

[john elvidge]

Thanks for all this. I see that the thread on hmorrison on Gunner Costello has a note on the Salonica campaign with the 27th (28th?) division, which started in 2015 and continued until 30 September 1918 when the Bulgarians surrendered.  My father definitely mentioned that he was on horseback in Bulgaria, and the campaign, I understand, was to aid Serbia. After the final battle there the divisions were then moved to Constantinople and became the Army of Occupation to monitor the Turks. So it would be possible for him to have been both in Bulgaria, and Constantinople. He was also, from photos we once possessed, at some point in Cairo, so I am confused as to the order of events.

 

Is my understanding of this correct?

 

I can see that this may be  too late to have qualified as active war service, so as to get any  medals.

[MaxD]

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/28th-division/

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/27th-division/

 

Are the outline histories of 27h and 28 Divisions.  As David established earlier, and clues found subsequently with others, he would have deployed overseas in about May 1918 so anything earlier than that is background.  Alexandria was the shipping point of entry to that theatre so that is where Egypt fits in.  As you've seen, there were many artillery brigades in the theatre so we really can't say exactly where he slots at the the end of the Salonika campaign and the transition into the Black Sea Army.

 

This:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31139/supplement/1169 is the Commander in Chief's despatch on the Salonika Campaign from Oct 1917 to Dec 1918.  The

a later period doesn't seem to have merited a despatch.

 

David has cited the Official History and earlier threads on this forum have recommended that as perhaps the best source.

 

You very rightly referred in an early post to "this forgotten field of war" - reading material is sparse but above all we are bedevilled by not knowing what brigade father served in.

 

Max

[john elvidge]

If he was in the 4th Reserve Battery of the IB Reserve Brigade in Forest Row sometime in 1918/1919, does this tell us anything about which Brigade he may have served in overseas?

I am truly greatful for all this astonishing research. John