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Remembered Today:

French village named Revenshaw?


Blackblue

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Can anyone identify a village (presumably east of Villers-Bretonneux in mid 1918) known as Revenshaw or similar (this might be a German moniker for a French township). Mentioned in the attached POW Statement. This man captured vicinity of 62D.SE.P.26 30 April 1918. 

 

Rgds

 

Tim 

Revenshaw.png

Edited by Blackblue
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6 hours ago, Blackblue said:

known as Revenshaw

Hi Tim,

 

Nothing obvious but noting he uses (?) against the name, it has to be:

  1. Near to the front line but on the German side and safe enough to remain under care for 5 days.
  2. Between his point of capture (Sheet 62d.P.26, yellow square) and Le Quesnoy (bottom right).
  3. Phonetic candidates are Rozainvillers or Rosieres.  Noting he had a shattered arm and was too sick to eat and wasn't exactly sure of the spelling, who knows?

image.png.7989a46126e6ff28195444f56cba89a5.png

 

Edited by WhiteStarLine
Changed to sick to too sick!
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Many thanks Gents,

I've looked at everything starting R and can't find anything likely...nothing phonetically similar either. I was assuming it might be closer to Warfusee given his description that he was 'helped there' so assume he was on foot. I'll have a look at the Red Cross stuff. 

 

Tim 

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Rouvroy en Santerre might be a possibility, if said very fast? 

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Hi,

 

I don't know any place in the area which sounds close to it, as Michelle said it could be "Rouvroy" or "Rainecourt"... not too sure.

Another possibility is "ravin chaud", the closest prononciation in French, it means "hot ravine"... but I have never heard about such a place here.

 

Sly

Edited by Sly
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Many years ago my wife and I stopped in a gite at the village of Raincheval, north east of Villers Bretonneux. I have no idea (and can't be bothered to check) if it was behind German lines at the time, but it might be a possibility.

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Great suggestions! Maybe Rosieres or Rosières-en-Santerre? I note this is on the way to Le Quesnoy and there are a few hospitals just to the North. 

Field Hospitals.png

Edited by Blackblue
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Could it be he was taken to hospital in a different Le Quesnoy?

And "Revenshaw" is a placename ending in "sur Somme" (Like Bray-sur-Somme, Mericourt-sur-Somme) ?

 

quesnoy.jpg.65f95322bd6a44d71479f40200ae511f.jpg

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Without the original poster revealing everything (name and unit of the man in question), it's all stabbing in the dark. This is not the first time that people only want to give a limited amount of the information they have, while they expect receive a full answer.

Knowing the German army a bit, it would be strange that a man who was captured south of the Somme would be transported to Le Quesnoy (Nord). That is not along the normal evacuation route for wounded POWs, although this place had a Kriegslazarett with a POW section. The other le Quesnoy (near Roye, as can be seen in one of the posts) is too small to have had a Kriegslazarett with POW section, nor is it on the evacuation route from a place near Villers Bretonneux.

 

Jan

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11 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Without the original poster revealing everything (name and unit of the man in question), it's all stabbing in the dark. This is not the first time that people only want to give a limited amount of the information they have, while they expect receive a full answer.

Knowing the German army a bit, it would be strange that a man who was captured south of the Somme would be transported to Le Quesnoy (Nord). That is not along the normal evacuation route for wounded POWs, although this place had a Kriegslazarett with a POW section. The other le Quesnoy (near Roye, as can be seen in one of the posts) is too small to have had a Kriegslazarett with POW section, nor is it on the evacuation route from a place near Villers Bretonneux.

 

Jan

Well that's a rather disappointing response Jan! To be honest I'm flummoxed. I was simply focusing my inquiry on a particular village and discussing thoughts with longstanding Forum members. If anyone (politely) wishes to known more I'd be more than happy to share anything they might be interested in. 

 

The captive was 5437 SGT Francis Pullford, 14th Bn. Unfortunately they were opposed by Prussian units, so no interrogation reports available (Potsdam Archive destroyed 1945).  

 

Rgds

 

Tim 

Edited by Blackblue
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12 hours ago, JWK said:

Could it be he was taken to hospital in a different Le Quesnoy?

And "Revenshaw" is a placename ending in "sur Somme" (Like Bray-sur-Somme, Mericourt-sur-Somme) ?

 

quesnoy.jpg.65f95322bd6a44d71479f40200ae511f.jpg

Thanks JWK, 

I do think it reads as being within relatively close proximity to the capture, so certainly a possibility!

 

Tim 

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So, after some checking and reading the hospital is almost certainly Le Quesnoy (Nord), so this "Revenshaw" should be (probably) in the area Bois de Vaire - Albert - Peronne.

 

Do you know which German unit was in the area?

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BTW, it seems the 9th Bavarian Reserve Division may have been in that area late April/early May.

 

Some elements of 4th Guard Division which were fighting east of Villers Bretonneux were transported by train from Roisel to Le Quesnoy early May. I doubt there were already working train connections west of Peronne early May.

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1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

BTW, it seems the 9th Bavarian Reserve Division may have been in that area late April/early May.

 

Some elements of 4th Guard Division which were fighting east of Villers Bretonneux were transported by train from Roisel to Le Quesnoy early May. I doubt there were already working train connections west of Peronne early May.

I'm double checking with the AWM. I've been advised Prussian units, but if you look at the Australian 4th Div and 4th Bde War Diaries and prisoner interrogations it seems captures included 20th Jager Bn (relieved 8th Jager Bn overnight on 29 April) and 26th R.I.R 109th Div. 

 

Some explanation here too:

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1069681/document/5519173.PDF

 

Edited by Blackblue
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The 14th Battalion was more to the northeast of Villers Bretonneux (Bois de Vaire). What you sent is explanation of some fighting more to the southeast of Villers Bretonneux, that was a different sector (see the sketch on p. 645 in the pdf).

Edited by AOK4
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6 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

The 14th Battalion was more to the northeast of Villers Bretonneux (Bois de Vaire). What you sent is explanation of some fighting more to the southeast of Villers Bretonneux, that was a different sector (see the sketch on p. 645 in the pdf).

Sure, that is the most relevant Chapter of the Official History - indicative of what was going on in the AO and has some mentions of German units and dispositions detailed. Try 4th Div, 4th Bde, 14th Bn and 13th Bn War Diaries for Apr/May 18 if you are interested. 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1338583

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Just now, Blackblue said:

Sure, that is the most relevant Chapter of the Official History - indicative of what was going on in the AO and has some mentions of German units and dispositions detailed. Try 4th Div, 4th Bde, 14th Bn and 13th Bn War Diaries for Apr/May 18 if you are interested. 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1338583

 

I have checked the 14th Bn war diary, that's how I found out they were near Bois de Vaire, hence my reference to 9th Bavarian Reserve Division. Unfortunately, none of the relevant units have published regimental histories (to double check whether they were holding the sector), but all files should be available in Munich.

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An update: reliefs and changes in sector widths were very frequent after the Michael Offensive and the failed German attack on Villers Bretonneux late April 1918, making finding the exact unit engaged extremely difficult. It seems 1st Infantry Division was in that sector still late April/early May with Grenadier-Regiment 3 and Infanterie-Regiment 43. However, both regimental histories don't mention anything relevant about your man.

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just a thought, Im no expert.

Revenshaw , would it have been a place named after Major General Hurdis Revenshaw,  a name of a place renamed by the army to remember former commanders and a name that the Germans might not know should they get information from prisoners.

from Wiki..

In 1914, Ravenshaw was brought out of semi-retirement to command the 1st battalion of the Connaught Rangers, an Irish regiment in India which he brought to France for service on the Western Front in late September. Ravenshaw remained in command of the Connaught Rangers until April 1915, when he was made a staff officer at 1st Division headquarters before being promoted and given command of the 83rd Brigade. This unit saw action in France during 1915 before being sent to Salonica in Greece as part of the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force.

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Hmmm, found this on Google books (whilst looking for a village renamed "Revenshaw" (as suggested by @chaz)

 

An anonymous Australian soldier in 1918 tells his story (in the book "Aussie Soldier: Prisoners of war")

Book.jpg.5fc9002892567a47ffa7d153c2b21022.jpg

 

Valenciennes is just north of le Quesnoy (Nord).

 

 

So was it "just a shattered arm" (bad enough) or "a shattered arm ánd an amputated leg"?

Were two reports somehow glued together, or did one report plagiarise (in part) the other?

 

The whole article of where the excerpt in the OP comes from here (University of Kansas, by the looks of it, and the report looks made-up (or at least not well researched:  "I left Le Quesnoy about the l9th May, 1918, and travelled by train through France and Belgium to Guben, in Brandenburg, arriving there on 16th May)

 

http://www.vlib.us/medical/pow/1918.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by JWK
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12 minutes ago, JWK said:

Hmmm, found this on Google books (whilst looking for a village renamed "Revenshaw" (as suggested by @chaz)

 

An anonymous Australian soldier in 1918 tells his story (in the book "Aussie Soldier: Prisoners of war")

Book.jpg.5fc9002892567a47ffa7d153c2b21022.jpg

 

Valenciennes is just north of le Quesnoy (Nord).

 

 

So was it "just a shattered arm" (bad enough) or "a shattered arm ánd an amputated leg"?

Were two reports somehow glued together, or did one report plagiarise (in part) the other?

 

The whole article of where the excerpt in the OP comes from here (University of Kansas, by the looks of it):

http://www.vlib.us/medical/pow/1918.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fascinating JWK...definitely a combination of accounts. Certainly no mention of Valenciennes or a leg. I actually sent the original report to Dr Miller (site owner) a few days back, he didn't have the original or names.

 

Tim

13 hours ago, chaz said:

just a thought, Im no expert.

Revenshaw , would it have been a place named after Major General Hurdis Revenshaw,  a name of a place renamed by the army to remember former commanders and a name that the Germans might not know should they get information from prisoners.

from Wiki..

In 1914, Ravenshaw was brought out of semi-retirement to command the 1st battalion of the Connaught Rangers, an Irish regiment in India which he brought to France for service on the Western Front in late September. Ravenshaw remained in command of the Connaught Rangers until April 1915, when he was made a staff officer at 1st Division headquarters before being promoted and given command of the 83rd Brigade. This unit saw action in France during 1915 before being sent to Salonica in Greece as part of the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force.

Worth a look Chaz! Many thanks. 

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"Revenshaw" = Bray-sur-Somme?

It has the same rythm (Re-ven-shaw vs Bray-sur-som), it's not that far from Villers-Bretonneux, and the poor soldier was probably "not in this world entirely", what with a shattered arm (and a possible shattered leg to add), medication, not used to German pronounciations etc. so all he remembered was a place-name which sounded something like "Revenshaw"?

 

Just a thought....

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, JWK said:

"Revenshaw" = Bray-sur-Somme?

It has the same rythm (Re-ven-shaw vs Bray-sur-som), it's not that far from Villers-Bretonneux, and the poor soldier was probably "not in this world entirely", what with a shattered arm (and a possible shattered leg to add), medication, not used to German pronounciations etc. so all he remembered was a place-name which sounded something like "Revenshaw"?

 

Just a thought....

 

 

 

Yes, I like it. Certainly makes sense as to location....

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