HMS Queen Mary

[Fattyowls]

Just to say thanks for all of this gang. I researched a man called Frank Docherty whose family lived on Palmer's Terrace, Willington Quay and who worked in one of the shipyards so it's brilliant to see the maps. I've also had an interest in the ill fated Queen Mary and I also really rate 'Get Carter' as a movie. Provided you can get round the idea of Michael Caine as a Geordie it is brilliant. And I have Roy Budd's haunting theme from the movie as my current earworm. What's not to like?

 

Pete

[ianjonesncl]

On 06/07/2020 at 14:00, ianjonesncl said:

Intrigued by the NE Tyneside link, I downloaded the casualties recorded on CWGC 31st May to 1st June for HMS Queen Mary and it returned 1,267 casualties. Looking at the addresses recorded for each casualty, and appreciate that this may not provide an exact correlation, it shows 1 casualty from Jarrow, and another 23 from Tyneside.

A bit more research and the local Newcastle newspaper has an article on the River Tyne and the Battle of Jutland.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/history/battle-jutland-100-years-on-11405059

 

The article outlines that about 50 came from Tyneside.

The Northumbria World War One Commemoration Project has so far traced around 120 Tyneside sailors who died in the battle, which took place over 16 hours from May 31 to June 1.

About 50 came from the battlecruiser Queen Mary, built at Palmer’s shipyard in Jarrow , and which was lost at Jutland. She was known as ‘Jarrow’s own ship.’

[Hedley Malloch]

Ian: Thank you for the clarification. I was not aware that Palmer's had two yards on the south bank of the Tyne, but it is now clear. I agree with you that post-industrial Tyneside is a much-changed place and not necessarily the better for it, especially if you remember it, as I do, in the 1950s when it was all go. I revisited it last in 2009 and was horrified to see that Simpson's Hotel had been pulled down and on its site someone had erected a faux ruined Roman fort. Have these people no respect for history?

 

Thank you for the details of the warships built on the Tyne. If you are ever fortunate enough to visit Gallipoli, make sure you call in at the Turkish Naval Museum in Besiktas, Istanbul. There you will find a most impressive collection of models of the warships of the pre-WW1 Ottoman navy. Many of these were actively engaged in the Gallipoli campaign and most of them were built in Great Britain. In fact, it was the retention of two of these newly-constructed ships at the Armstrong works in Scotswood that triggered Turkey's entry into the war. HMG refused to sanction their handing over to the Turks on the entirely reasonable assumption that the Turks would pass them on the German navy. One of them was re-christened HMS Agincourt and has been the subject of thread in this forum. 

 

Pete: Why did Michael Caine not play Jack Carter with a Geordie accent? This is one of the minor mysteries of world cinema. There are two explanations. The first is that the retention of his native cockney accent was a conscious dramatic device used to emphasise his rôle as an outsider, an intruder, the avenging angel, into the gangland culture of 1970s Tyneside. The second is that he could not do a Geordie accent. We Geordies have to recognise that not everyone is so blessed. If I ever meet him, I will ask him.

 

[Hedley Malloch]

20 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said:

A bit more research and the local Newcastle newspaper has an article on the River Tyne and the Battle of Jutland.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/history/battle-jutland-100-years-on-11405059

 

Ian: A great article - I would have loved to have seen Miss Evelyn Waggott's balloon dance.

[seaJane]

10 minutes ago, Hedley Malloch said:

faux ruined Roman fort

To be fair, it is precisely aligned to the original remains of the fort at Arbeia, and there is a museum based round the partial reconstruction. I don't suppose they knocked the hotel down in order to build it, so much as the fort was found to be when post-demolition excavations were carried out.

[ianjonesncl]

35 minutes ago, Hedley Malloch said:

Ian: Thank you for the clarification. I was not aware that Palmer's had two yards on the south bank of the Tyne, but it is now clear. I agree with you that post-industrial Tyneside is a much-changed place 

Hedley

 

Indeed the landscape is very much changed. I have just returned from Jarrow and Hebburn and my wife who hails from Hebburn found many places unrecognisable.  I tried to see if I could find the location where the picture of HMS Queen Mary was taken. Based on the assumption that the hills in the photo are the ballast hills at Willington Quay, we headed for Tyne Street, where the Pedestrian Tunnel is now located, as being the nearest accessible spot. Unfortunately inconclusive. It looks like the picture may have been taken from a higher structure, long gone. 

 

Ian

 

 

 

[ianjonesncl]

Looking at the CWGC casualty list from HMS Queen Mary, Stoker Robert Graves family is recorded as being located at 57 Hight Street, Jarrow. This would have been a 10 minute walk from Palmers Jarrow Shipyard. Robert Graves was a Royal Naval Reservist, so conceivably pre war he could have worked at Palmers, was then called up, ending up on the the Jarrow built HMS Queen Mary.

 

A review of the names listed on the Palmer Shipyard Cenotaph, which records the names of employees of Palmer's that died 1914-18, shows a Robert Grave who worked at Jarrow Shipyard. He is listed under the names of those added after completion of the cenotaph.
http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=7779#listlink

 

A little more research brought up Robert Graves name on the Wartime Memories Project.

https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/view.php?uid=216379

 

The entry states "On the 1911 census Robert Graves age 30 Ships Plate Riveter in the Palmer Shipyard" living with wife, children and widowed mother at 57 Hight Street, Jarrow". The entry also records that Robert Graves "is commemorated on the Palmer Cenotaph" . The information is confirmed in an article in the local Shields Gazette. 

https://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/honouring-our-war-dead-384339

 

He was therefore employed as a plate riveter at the Jarrow Shipyard (Hebburn did not open till 1912) at the time that that HMS Queen Mary was being built. The keel was laid 6th March 1911, the census was conducted 2nd April 1911n and the vessel was launched 20th March 1912.

 

It is therefore conceivable that Robert Graves help build the ship on which he lost his life.  

[Hedley Malloch]

3 hours ago, seaJane said:

To be fair, it is precisely aligned to the original remains of the fort at Arbeia, and there is a museum based round the partial reconstruction. I don't suppose they knocked the hotel down in order to build it, so much as the fort was found to be when post-demolition excavations were carried out.

 

I know its origins. I was being a little ironic. I momentarily forgot that irony does not travel well on the internet. Apologies.

 

[seaJane]

22 minutes ago, Hedley Malloch said:

 

I know its origins. I was being a little ironic. I momentarily forgot that irony does not travel well on the internet. Apologies.

 

Fair 'nuff! Apologies in my turn for over-explaining.

[Fattyowls]

4 hours ago, Hedley Malloch said:

 Why did Michael Caine not play Jack Carter with a Geordie accent? This is one of the minor mysteries of world cinema. There are two explanations. The first is that the retention of his native cockney accent was a conscious dramatic device used to emphasise his rôle as an outsider, an intruder, the avenging angel, into the gangland culture of 1970s Tyneside. The second is that he could not do a Geordie accent. We Geordies have to recognise that not everyone is so blessed. If I ever meet him, I will ask him.

 

Important to have cleared that up and posed the inevitable follow up question, you're a toff guv and no mistake*. It's a while since I watched the movie but thinking about it most of the main actors used their own accents, or am I being unfair? Certainly the photo of the multi-storey car park is very evocative of the times. I can think of bits of Liverpool and Birmingham which bear similar scars of the 70's but that encapsulates it beautifully. Either way this is the thread that just keeps giving....

 

Pete.

 

*apologies for drifting into music hall cockney stereotypes, couldn't help myself.

[ianjonesncl]

Jutland Day 1926

A memorial service on board a boat in the River Tyne

Jutland Day. Simple but touching ceremony off the mouth if the Tyne

 

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/jutland-day/query/Jutland

 

[Hyacinth1326]

14 hours ago, Fattyowls said:

most of the main actors used their own accents, or am I being unfair?

 

The only authentic North East actor in the film was a young Alun Armstrong and he is from Annfield Plain in Co. Durham.  At any rate here are a couple of Queen Mary images 

[Hyacinth1326]

[Fattyowls]

34 minutes ago, Hyacinth1326 said:

here are a couple of Queen Mary images 

 

Even more excellent photographs; thank you. I tend to forget that there was only one main turret at the stern. All the more poignant given this one, taken from HMS Lydiard on 31st May 1916; it's from the Wikipedia entry for HMS Lion and is public domain. Although I've been familiar with this image since I was a kid I've only just noticed that the marks on the photo when you see it full size might not be just be defects with the exposure or processing. Equally I'd always assumed it was taken from one of the German vessels, so that's improved my understanding. Either way I find it is awesome and devastating in the proper senses of the words, even 104 years on.

 

Pete.

 

 

 

[Hyacinth1326]

Innes McCartney has written an intriguing account of his forensic examinations of the wreck in 'Jutland, The Archaeology of a Naval Battlefield (Bloomsbury). It is available as a kindle download as well as in book form.  The wreck site coloured images found on the internet derive from this book. The wreck of Queen Mary has been plundered by commercial salvagers but Innes' interpretation is well worth reading, if sobering in all sorts of ways.  

Edited 11 July , 2020 by Hyacinth1326

[ianjonesncl]

[RNCVR]

The dockyard before & after photos are very nice, a lot of change in the shoreline,over 100+ yrs!

Thanks for posting Ian,

 

Best...Bryan

[Hyacinth1326]

One reason why the Tyne is blessed with a lot of salmon

 

I still find it hard to imagine the force of the detonation that destroyed Queen Mary.  

Edited 14 July , 2020 by Hyacinth1326

[GrandFleetDays]

Joining late to this thread. Wanted to give this image an airing. Queen Mary leaving for preliminary sea trials in June 1913.

[Curlew1919]

On 02/07/2020 at 15:43, Hedley Malloch said:

 

This is doing the rounds on Facebook. This is the Ill-fated Battlecruiser HMS Queen Mary during final fitting out Palmers ship yard at Hebburn near Newcastle in 1913. Geordie through and through with guns from Armstrong at Elswick, four turbine engines from Parsons. She blew up early in the Battle of Jutland in 1916 after her magazines were hit by shots from the Derfflinger - or was it the Serdlitz? 1266 crewmen lost their lives. There were 18 survivors.

 

Youtube footage of the remains of the wreck at 

 

 

 

Geordies here may be able to identify the works on the north bank of the Tyne in the background. Too far west for Swan Hunters, I think. Walker Naval Yard? 

 

Queen Mary at Jarrow

Across the river is Willington Quay, Howdon, Wallsend

[ianjonesncl]

On 03/07/2020 at 16:45, Hyacinth1326 said:

 Peter Coppack in his book 'Tyneside and the Battle of Jutland' suggests that the crew of Queen Mary had a NE flavour and that the ship was known as 'Jarrow's Own'

I have just come across this old news reel showing a Jutland Day parade and memorial service in Jarrow in 1933.

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/in-memory-of-fallen-comrades/query/Jarrow

[Hyacinth1326]

Thank you for posting that.

[RNCVR]

Enjoyed the newsreel, thanks also for posting...

[ianjonesncl]

On 02/07/2020 at 15:43, Hedley Malloch said:

Geordies here may be able to identify the works on the north bank of the Tyne in the background. Too far west for Swan Hunters, I think. Walker Naval Yard? 

I came across this map which shows the works opposite Palmers Jarrow Yard. The Cookson's works was next door to what became the entrance to the Tyne Tunnel.

 

[Hedley Malloch]

Ian, Many thanks.