Sgt W, Tindall, MM, C/1021, 16th KRRC.

[l.h.j. wilson]

Maternal Gt. Uncle. DoW, Haringhe CCS, 1918. Wrote to his little niece, my Mum, all through his Army Service - we still have all his cheery little letters. I'm wondering if he was awarded his MM for work during the  attack on Hazy Trench, in the Battle of the Transloy Ridges in Nov 1916; or for his work in the attack of High Wood, later. . His MM was not gazetted until 1917 - would that announcement have been so long delayed from 1916? O r is it more likely that his MM was awarded for work at  The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, or The Battle of Polygon Wood

  30 years ago I tried to find out and was told MM records had been lost.  Living in Jersey,  I lack the access to research this for myself, so any help to add this info to his File in our family History, would be greatly appreciated. We DO know most of what the 16th KRRC did during the War and have obtained copies of the war Diary up to April 1918, when he was fatally wounded in the trenches below Locre, but identifying the Action for which he was awarded his MM has so-far eluded us.  Unfortunately we don't have a picture of him, though we DO have one of C Coy, 16th KRRC before they embarked for France. Any help will be very much appreciated.

Edited 2 July , 2020 by l.h.j. wilson
omitted info, mis-spelled name 2nd 'i' was missing.

[charlie962]

Welcome to the Forum.

The KRRC Chronicle may possibly have something ?

Charlie

[charlie962]

And did you see there is a partial service record for him? here on FindmyPast (mistranscribed service number)

 

But still may not explain MM award.

 

Charlie

Edited 2 July , 2020 by charlie962

[HarryBrook]

Just to point out that Sgt. Walter John Tindall's service number was given as C1021 on his medal index card and on his widow's pension application card.

 

Edit to add in reply to Charlie's post #2 - A range of K.R.R.C. Chronicles are available on findmypast https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/kings-royal-rifle-corps-chronicle-1900-1920 but putting Tindall in the search box was fruitless. 

Edited 2 July , 2020 by HarryBrook

[charlie962]

19 minutes ago, HarryBrook said:

given as C1021 on his medal index card a

and on his Service Record !

[charlie962]

Looks like his award was for 25-27th Sept 1917.      edit  (I assume dates are correct just should be MM not MC !)

 

courtesy FindmyPast Newspapers:

 

charlie

Edited 2 July , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

I see that unusually the War Diary has individual Company Commanders' reports for those days.

 

Each Company was attached to a differnet Battalion for that period and their actions were different. It is more likely that he was B Company as a Sergeant (with whom he was killed) than the original C company that you refer to in a photo. But needs confirmation.

 

Charlie

Edited 2 July , 2020 by charlie962
extra comment

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, HarryBrook said:

but putting Tindall in the search box was fruitless

except for this bit which confirms the date of action but not the Company. However Capt Francis was commanding C Coy.:

courtesy FindmyPast as linked by Harry

 

 

Edited 2 July , 2020 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

CWGC have him as C/1021 and B Company https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/94169/tindall,-walter-john

Pension Ledger for C/1021 has his widow Jane Elizabeth ROBERTSON [dob. 2.12.85], 80 Arthur Rd, Windsor, Berks - 2/10/18 got 16/3 widow's pension plus 6/8 children's allowance = 22/11 under Articles 11 & 12  commencing 18-10-18

:-) M

Edited 2 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
added widow's surname

[l.h.j. wilson]

Thanks everyone. My fault the wrong Service No. -   - I'm a silver surfer and I hunt and peck on the keyboard, and posted his details without looking up my file. Of Course C/1021 is correct - my senior moment at the age of 83 I'm afraid. Haven't looked at his file for ages and I thought my memory was more reliable than  it has demonstrated. .  Thanks so much for the scan from the Mercury  I got a Windsor friend of mine to have a look in the newspaper files for the time in Slough Central Reference Library and she was unable to find anything. So  - thanks to you kind people I now have dates - "bravery on the field on Sept 25th and 27th" - which was more than I could have hoped-for. His April 1918 Death Card from the 62nd CCS has a scrawled note "C.Coy". And I have  trench maps for the Neuve Eglise and Baillieul areas so I know the exact map location of the trenches below Locre Chateau where he was wounded, while taking part in repelling attacks by German Stürmtrupped as a member of a scratch Unit composed of retreating soldiers of 16th KRRC, 9th HLI, and 1st Queens, and other stragglers, after the battle for Neuve Eglise.Now to look up where C.Coy was on 25th & 27th Sept, 1917.

[charlie962]

4 minutes ago, l.h.j. wilson said:

His April 1918 Death Card from the 62nd CCS has a scrawled note "C.Coy".

Implying CWGC was incorrect. As I said Capt Francis was C coy on those dates Sept 1917. Worth looking up Francis's MC citation for clues as to particular fighting.

Edited 2 July , 2020 by charlie962

[l.h.j. wilson]

Thanks, Matlock. I didn't have those details for Gt Aunt Bess and will gratefully add them to her file. After Gt Uncle Walter's death she married a Trooper from the R Scots Greys, and post-War he got a job as Head Groom to Lord Camrose,  She met 'Jock' Robertson while helping-out at Grandpa Lovejoy's Pub - "The Bull" in Peascod Street, Windsor. Not sure of the date of that marriage, but it looks like Gt Aunt Bess remarried quickly; Uncle Walter DoW in April, and by September Gt Aunt Bess has already married Jock Robertson! ,They spent the rest of their married lives on Lord Camrose's estate at Basingstoke.

[l.h.j. wilson]

Charlie 962- Not surprised my Windsor friend Sandra, - a very good researcher on political stuff and current events, and member of the Windsor Historical Society - could not  find anything at Slough - because I asked her to look for details in the local Windsor Newspaper. Thank you so much for that scan from the Reading Mercury!  I have done a screen grab using PSP and added that to Gt Uncle Walter's file.

[charlie962]

You have the War Diary. For reference on Ancestry it starts here, Zillebeke area. As I noted, it follows with individual Company Commander reports. C Coy under Francis was attached to the 1st Queens for subsequent action.

 

Charlie

 

 

Lawrence Edmund Francis is, I think, the Captain concerned.

Edited 2 July , 2020 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, l.h.j. wilson said:

Not sure of the date of that marriage, but it looks like Gt Aunt Bess remarried quickly; Uncle Walter DoW in April, and by September Gt Aunt Bess has already married Jock Robertson!

Shame we've not yet got a Pension Card to go with the ledger.

She seems remarried by October according to the Ledger but gets a Widow's pension = ???

This rather puzzles me as that whilst it would be normal to get a children's allowance after remarriage [until the children reached 16yo] a Widow's pension would stop and a one-off widow's re-marriage grant/gratuity provided [sorry not exactly sure what it was correctly called]

If we could find it perhaps a Pension Card might shed more light.

:-) M

[l.h.j. wilson]

Matlock - please - don't spend any more time on Gt Aunt Bess. You've already given me more than I expected with your valuable contribution. Thank you so much for your help.

[HarryBrook]

The pension card referred to is available to view free to Western Front Association members via a link from its website. I could upload it here but it might break some rule.

 

The award of the M.C. to acting Capt. Lawrence Edmund Francis was announced in the London Gazette on 23 November 1917 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30399/supplement/12319 and the citation was published on 5 April 1918 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30614/supplement/4213 The annotated pre-publication gazette gives the date of the action as 26 September 1917, near Veldhoek (image courtesy National Archives).

 

 

[l.h.j. wilson]

Thank you so much, Veldhoek? That's a more precise location than I get from the descriptions I have of the Battle for Polygon Wood.  Let's see what i can find on the trench maps I already have. Today that's "Veldhoeke" SW of Polygon Wood and slightly off the A19 major road, closet the site of Cameron House on the contemporary maps, from what i can see on Google earth.

 

Edited 2 July , 2020 by l.h.j. wilson
more precision in location after studying modern and contemporary maps and aerial images

[charlie962]

1st Queens (to which C Company were attached for these operations) war diary may have more detail ?

[brianmorris547]

Have you seen the maps in the WD of 33 Div HQ General Staff and further reports in the WD of 100 Infantry Brigade.

Brian

[l.h.j. wilson]

Many, many thanks to both of you. When I was last researching in Gt Uncle Walter's war - I did a lot of work to try and understand the 16thKRRC's operations around High Wood in 1916, and also his last battle - the  defending of Neuve Eglise in 1918, and the retreat from there in the direction of Locre ahead of the advancing Stürmtruppen. So - back then, I acquired trench maps for High Wood and for the Battle of Neuve Eglise and it's aftermath to find the trenches below Locre Chateau where Sgt Tindall was (fatally?) wounded on either 14th/15th April before being cas-evac'd 16kms to the 62nd CCS where he is recorded as DoW on 17th April, 1918. 30 years back I couldn't get any more info. However, my wife, a Trauma Specialist Nurse of 25 years experience at the time, looking into the general medical development and treatment history of WW1 casualties, suggested that  - given he survived long enough for the 16kms cas-evac, to arriving at the 62nd CCS ,  that he may have died of shock or infection, rather than of the physical damage of the wound. Thinking that he might have been awarded his MM for work at High Wood, I didn't look closely at what C Coy, were doing in support so close to Polygon Wood between 25th-27th September, 1918. So I didn't look for the War Diary nor for any trench maps that would  enlighten us about that action.

[charlie962]

There is so much more now that is easily accessible at a distance.

 

Here are some Sept 1917 links to Discovery National Archives War Diaries that are free to download, if you register, for the moment- profit from this to look at all that might be vaguely connected.

 

1st Queens

100 Brigade HQ

33 Division HQ General Staff

 

Charlie

[charlie962]

I see this map in the Queens War diary:  courtesy National Archives with the link above (I hope I'm not infringing rules). Shows where 16 KRRC were planned to start.