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Remembered Today:

German Dial Sight, L1213 dated 1915


Old Forge
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Hi all, can anyone identify this simple German dial sight? I'd be interested to know what it's from. From the size (25cm tall) I'm guessing field gun - 77mm - but I emphasise 'guessing' there.

 

Many thanks,

 

Richard

Dial Sight 1.jpg

Dial Sight 2.jpg

Dial Sight 3.jpg

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Richard its a German light field gun/artillery dial sight.  WWI examples made by Goerz. I do not know much about them but 88mm, flak guns, howitzers etc all had similar variants. Not to be confused with a Russian sight that is almost identical.

Mark

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If you go to the Australian War Memorial web site, and look for Artillery sight 8 Field Artillery Brigade you will find details of a super captured example.  Mark

In fact I would recommend everyone going, and read about Bombadier Duke - very interesting.

Edited by Mark Finneran
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Many thanks Mark, that's very helpful. I'll check out the AWM sight. I'll work on the assumption it's from a 77mm field gun until I see anything to direct me elsewhere. Of interest, it's graduated to 6,400, so the standard NATO 'mils'. No slipping scale, so just simple deflection from the line it's set up on ('centre of arc').

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

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This is the standard Goertz panoramic sight used by all German army artillery in WW1 for indirect fire and the basis of the panoramic sights used by most other nations. There are various minor differences between models, fitting into different sight cups. This example has the hook on the bottom, and can be used with the various 77mm field guns such as c96n/A and m1916. It may also be able to be used with other field guns - I cannot confirm this. The sight used with the 10.5cm howitzer looks identical but does not have the hook and has a piece of metal scalloped out of the bottom shaft of the sight. There are also models fitted with a small mirror to the bottom shaft over a spirit level eliminating the need for a clinometer to be mounted on the sight arc.

 

image.png.828a79b2274b1b3ef85b7018430f520c.png

Howitzer type sight fitted with mirror and spirit level, mounted on a 7,5cm field gun

 

 

image.png.618d68d59a663d3fcbfb4523d532795c.png

 

Illustration from German artillery manual showing sight for c96n/A 77mm field gun

 

 

image.png.a48de2e3b0585538eb96ebd391edbcce.png

 

 

Illustration from German artillery manual showing sight for m98/09 10.5cm howitzer - note that the scallop on the lower shaft is not visible as it is on the other side to the eyepiece.

 

image.png.3d747b0ae26e418f8a7f25bb457a4fa0.png

 

 

Illustration from German artillery manual showing sight for c96n/A 77mm field gun mounted in the cup and sight arm arc.

 

Cheers

Ross

 

 

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Ross superb detail. Now that you have identified yourself as an excellent source of info 🤪 what do you know about the use of various types of optics for the MG. I don’t mean the standard ZF12 but larger tripod mounted optics and the elusive entfernungsmesser 14.

Mark

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Many thanks Chase, some very helpful piccies there. There's a window on the right side of the eye piece, shown in the illustration above as 'Window to illuminate the painted plate'. However, I can't see what the painted plate is, either in the pics or on the sight itself... I wondered if it was for shining a torch in to reflect up and out of the head for the director to pick up at night - but it doesn't work with my example. When looking through the eyepiece there's no discernible change if you cover the window with a finger. Any idea what the painted plate is and how the window is supposed to illuminate it?

 

All the best,

 

Richard

Edited by Old Forge
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Hi Richard

I have always taken that "window" as being used to shine a torch through for night illumination but have never tried it on any of mine.

Cheers

Ross

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  • 1 year later...
18 hours ago, tt33 said:

Sorry for necro but would it be possible to share the sight picture of this optic?

 

No probs @tt33, although it's not easy to get a pic with an iPhone...

Richard

Gun sight view.jpg

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Old Forge: since this thread is still active, the answer to the original question is that the small window is used to shine a light into teh sight to illuminate the graticule so it that can be seen at night - without it being illuminated in this way, it would be impossible to use the sight at night. The corresponding British No. 7 dial sight had the same window for the same purpose as would be expected as it was based on the German design. 

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Thanks @awjdthumper, all insights gratefully received!

All the best,

Richard

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  • 1 year later...

Thread resurrection again!

I came across this British no7 mkii dates 1918 and made by beck, but it’s very very similar to this German one even down the the red painted bit.

Is it missing the large disc for rotation?

 

I presume the metal tin indicates it was used through ww2 aswell?

7015E68A-ACCB-43CD-A391-708395E8AAC1.jpeg.355a5787706cfaa2ee85a774a74a782f.jpeg

 

 

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This has all the appearance of a German 'dial sight' but are you saying that it is marked up as a British dial sight? If so, it would be interesting to see close up pictures of the markings. If it is as you say then, I guess, it's possible for the British to have made use of captured German instruments although one obvious difficulty would be that the German army worked in angular units of MILs whereas the British used degrees.

 

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1 hour ago, Spaceman said:

This has all the appearance of a German 'dial sight' but are you saying that it is marked up as a British dial sight? If so, it would be interesting to see close up pictures of the markings. If it is as you say then, I guess, it's possible for the British to have made use of captured German instruments although one obvious difficulty would be that the German army worked in angular units of MILs whereas the British used degrees.

 

Hi spaceman 

here you go

27B8F377-E6AA-4A7B-BAC2-8A64840793AC.jpeg.31c39840a7e36e619fddd6d198050393.jpeg

 

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Have a look over it for a "SA" in a square box. Why I ask is that I suspect that it is a British No 7 that has been sold to Finland between the two wars and rebuilt by the Fins to be similar to a German sight. I am unaware of the British manufacturing a steel chest for the sight in either war.

Cheers

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I think this may be a German WW1 'dial sight' modified with the addition of the sighting head from a British No. 7 Mk II. I'd have to look at the details, but the No. 7 Mk II was much closer to the early German Goertz dial sight it was copied from than the later marks and it may not have been that difficult to swap the sighting heads. It could well have been done post-WW1.

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Thanks both, that’s interesting information thank you 

 

ed

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Having looked into the details, I think the sighting heads from both the German dial sight and the British No. 7 Mk II were very similar - they did not contain any focussing optics but just an internally reflecting prism. This meant a British sighting head would not have presented any optical problems when fitted to a German dial sight.  However, why someone would want to mix them is not very clear.

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