what regiment

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Forgive my ignorance.

My impression of the impact that swordsmanship on the outcome of the Great War, was that it was pretty close to zero.

And that swordsmanship would be confined to the specialist cavalry regiments.

And again, an impression that this art was pretty much confined to the upper or officer classes.

But here we have a man (who I think was a postman in the 1911 Census), earns his medals as a Lance Corporal, and becomes an instructor in swordsmanship in the Hussars. Not the stereotype that I would have expected.

So I imagine that he must have learnt the art in his Yeomanry days, become quite skilled at it, in fact, so good, he became an instructor, ending the war as a sergeant?

 

And I agree that is him on the left in the second photo.

 

Edited 30 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Maureen Hurst]

He was a postman in 1911 and still worked for the Post office in 1939.

 

[Maureen Hurst]

Thank you very much  for all the information I have learned more in the last 24 hours than in the years I have been trying, on and off to sort this batch of photographs that were given to out Local History Society.. They are all from various branches of one family and some of them have no information on them at all. I will start another conversation about some for the KRRC .

[MaxD]

I wonder whether we are now agreed that Monks:

 

at the very least started his service (his original service number suggests in 1913) in the SNH

that he went to Gallipoli via Egypt with them (the entry date is correct)

that some time later transferred to the 11th Hussars but did not serve overseas with them (no medal award entry)

and that the first photo is taken after January 1918 (wearing his 1914/1915 Star).

 

 

It would be nice for Maureen if we were to pull together the jigsaw pieces found so far and then go on to suggest war diary reading (although they went to Salonika after Gallipoli so not the simplest of things)

 

max

 

 

 

[Maureen Hurst]

A  summary of findings would be very helpful so that I could print it and keep in my paper file. also anything else you can suggest . Thank you.

[MaxD]

Some nice reading material here:

 

http://www.radcliffeontrentww1.org.uk/south-nottinghamshire-hussars/

 

Max

 

[kloughnane]

Maureen,

 

I hope you don't mind but I thought that I'd have a go at colourising  the portrait of William Edwin Monks.

 

Regards,

 

Kev Loughnane

[Wexflyer]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Forgive my ignorance.

My impression of the impact that swordsmanship on the outcome of the Great War, was that it was pretty close to zero.

And that swordsmanship would be confined to the specialist cavalry regiments.

And again, an impression that this art was pretty much confined to the upper or officer classes.

But here we have a man (who I think was a postman in the 1911 Census), earns his medals as a Lance Corporal, and becomes an instructor in swordsmanship in the Hussars. Not the stereotype that I would have expected.

So I imagine that he must have learnt the art in his Yeomanry days, become quite skilled at it, in fact, so good, he became an instructor, ending the war as a sergeant?

 

And I agree that is him on the left in the second photo.

 

 

Tradition, man!

 

The English could not possibly have won without vast numbers of arme blanche to terrorise the Hun!

 

Haig certainly thought so.....

Edited 30 June , 2020 by Wexflyer

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, MaxD said:

I wonder whether we are now agreed that Monks:

 

at the very least started his service (his original service number suggests in 1913) in the SNH

that he went to Gallipoli via Egypt with them (the entry date is correct)

that some time later transferred to the 11th Hussars but did not serve overseas with them (no medal award entry)

and that the first photo is taken after January 1918 (wearing his 1914/1915 Star).

 

 

It would be nice for Maureen if we were to pull together the jigsaw pieces found so far and then go on to suggest war diary reading (although they went to Salonika after Gallipoli so not the simplest of things)

 

max

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with that entirely Max and am curious as to what circumstances led to him transferring before the war was over.  He seems to have been keen with his swordsmanship just at a time when it was starting to become irrelevant, although it carried on with colonial policing between the wars and had a final swan song with a squadron level (from memory) charge in the early part of WW2.  Ironically I think it was by a Yeomanry regiment, and in Iraq of all places.

[FROGSMILE]

42 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

 

Tradition, man!

 

The English could not possibly have won without vast numbers of arme blanche to terrorise the Hun!

 

Haig certainly thought so.....

British (and some fine Irishmen too) rather than “English”, if you please.  It was a joint effort, in the British Army, as it still is today.

Edited 30 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Maureen Hurst]

I have just noticed there is a (3) beside Egypt and  at the bottom of the card it says REDL 8-5-64

 

Do either of these means anything special ?

[Muerrisch]

Regarding "British" versus "English" usage, clearly there was a very large non-English participation among the Other Ranks. I wonder if any analysis of the participation by Welsh, Irish and Scottish in the Officers has been undertaken. Certainly the regular army of 1914 has huge swathes of English-sounding names [and more than a few Macs and Mcs of course. It would interesting, but perhaps insensitive to find out. Hackles rise too easily these days. I shall not volunteer.

[Maureen Hurst]

That is a very interesting link to the Ratcliffe on Trent web page and the coloured photograph looks really good , Thank you.

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Regarding "British" versus "English" usage, clearly there was a very large non-English participation among the Other Ranks. I wonder if any analysis of the participation by Welsh, Irish and Scottish in the Officers has been undertaken. Certainly the regular army of 1914 has huge swathes of English-sounding names [and more than a few Macs and Mcs of course. It would interesting, but perhaps insensitive to find out. Hackles rise too easily these days. I shall not volunteer.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that certainly during WW1 there were large numbers of officers from all parts of Britain and Ireland. Personally I am not as obsessed with statistics as some that I could mention.

Edited 30 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MaxD]

32 minutes ago, Maureen Hurst said:

I have just noticed there is a (3) beside Egypt and  at the bottom of the card it says REDL 8-5-64

 

The number is the code for the theatre of war a man first sets foot in (Western Europe was 1 and so on).   For embarkations up to the end of 1915 3 meant Egyptian theatre.

 

REDL 8-5-64 - no idea I'm afraid.

 

Max

[Tawhiri]

Ancestry says that there is a disability pension index card on Fold3 for a Willam Edwin Monks (service number H/281946) serving with the South Notts Hussars with the rank of LSgt, and discharged on 7 March 1919. He was born in 1889, and resident in Carrington, Nottingham. No next of kin mentioned. Unfortunately I'm not a Fold3 subscriber, so can only point you in their direction, or any other subscription-based family history site that may have the same information available.

Edited 30 June , 2020 by Tawhiri

[Wexflyer]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

British (and some fine Irishmen too) rather than “English”, if you please.  It was a joint effort, in the British Army, as it still is today.

 

Trusty native contingents were always employed.

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

 

Trusty native contingents were always employed.

 Indeed, and the sum of the total parts was formidable.

[MaxD]

25 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Ancestry says that there is a disability pension index card on Fold3 for a Willam Edwin Monks (service number H/281946

 

Most useful, that is our man.   I also do not have access.  However, the mention of a disability supports a speculative theory I have added to the attached short summary compiled from the combined wisdom and experience of the many contributors to this thread.  That last paragraph is extracted here - please note the speculative nature of the paragraph!!!

 

Speculation – the SNH were transformed into a battalion of the Machine Gun Corps (MGC) on April 1918.  I have not listed the diary as, if he had served with them, his medal records would (unless they were in error) show the MGC.  This suggests he transferred away from the SNH before that date.  A speculative scenario is that he returned to UK as an 11th Hussar and went, in his capacity as an instructor, to the one of the Reserve Cavalry Regiments to train newly joined cavalrymen.

The pension record may support this.

 

Max

William Edwin Monks.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

It might be speculation, but it’s very informed and I think very likely.

[Maureen Hurst]

I appreciate effort that has been made to assist me . I will follow up the links you have sent .

 

I have signed up for a weeks trial on Fold 3 and have printed off the pension card..

It says ne had a debility of 20% in 1920  and in january 1922 it was 6-14% but it doesn't say what the disability is. it was payable for 70 weeks

there is a string of letters and numbers CLBK19 WE21/2/22(15) Then it says on another line includes W&2,  then F W A

[MaxD]

Debility is a disability usually indicates weakness and frailty resulting from some illness and can improve over time.  One would expect to find a Silver War Badge record (a discharge for sickness)".  William Edwin doesn't appear on the Silver War Badge list which would imply a normal discharge.

 

Mistakes are not unknown.  Acid test, while the Fold3 index has the right details do the details on the card add up to William Edwin?   The letters and numbers are Ministry of Pensions administrative notes.

 

Max

[Maureen Hurst]

Yes the information is correct. although it still gives his regiment as the South Notts Hussars I could down load the card if it is permitted.

[MaxD]

Not really necessary.  A sickness resulting in being sent home as I speculated, some time before April 1918 when  the SNH became a battalion of the MGC now begins to look more like the case.  Why he is pictured wearing 11th Hussars shoulder titles I can't explain (but it won't be the first time I find myself in that position).

 

Max.

[Maureen Hurst]

He looks pretty healthy in the photograph which is dated 18/3/1919 .But who knows what that is concealing.