German Maj Rayman staff 5th Army HQ

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

 

I notice this officer mentioned in the Turkish Offical history page 222-223

 

He was sent from staff 5th Army to commander 19th Div in May 1915, and the 3rd Corps commander sent this to Sanders

 

"Taking refuge in your trust and discernment that has been bestowed on me
so far, I most respectfully submit that issuing such an offer to a Division
Commander surpassing the Army Corps will break the authority of the Army
Corps over the Division and I do request that, if the authority and duties of
Major Rayman assigned to the 19th Division General Corps has changed, you
direct your orders that I feel honoured to receive to those required so that
command and its mandate are mine in such important matters so they are
not made the subject of discussion by people that have no official
responsibility among the commanders. Respectfully submitted, Esat.

 

Is Maj Rayman names spelled right as I can't find him?

 

Anyone know who he is?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[charlie2]

The spelling is likely to be Raymann, Raimann, Reymann or Reimann. There is a Major Reymann in the ERL who‘s last appointment was on the staff of the 222. Infanterie Division.

 

Charlie

 

Edit and also a Major Reimann who died 15.9.23

Edited 28 June , 2020 by charlie2

[AOK4]

Why don't you use the book by Klaus Wolf? He has listed all German personnel. I have mentionned this book before.

 

There's a Major Felix Reimann listed there.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

I would love to but my copy has still not arrived after over a month of them saying it had been sent?

 

The so called tracking has it still on the way?

 

I am at a loss?

 

cheers

 

S.B

[AOK4]

6 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

 

I would love to but my copy has still not arrived after over a month of them saying it had been sent?

 

The so called tracking has it still on the way?

 

I am at a loss?

 

cheers

 

S.B

 

That's not good. Anyway, I can't immediately find anything more about the man in my sources.

 

Jan

[michaeldr]

“Liman von Sanders sends Major Rayman, who has worked as a special staff member at his headquarters, to Mustafa Kemal”

 

Liman does not appear to mention this incident in his 'Five Years in Turkey'

As AOK4 has pointed out Klaus Wolf's book lists an army Major Felix Reimann, but all that the Appendix adds is that he was treated for typhus at the German hospital in Istanbul between 17 June – 26 July 1915 (As pointed out by Charlie, this officer died in 1923)

The footnote in the Turkish history is a reference to “a.g.e.;s.190-191” if that means anything to you (I've drawn a blank)

Neither Rayman nor Reimann is mentioned in the Appendix to Kannengiesser's book.

 

edit to add:

Erickson mentions this incident referring to the major as 'Raymond' (see Gallipoli: The Ottoman Campaign, p.102)

however he adds no more details and was presumably working from the Turkish OH just like you

Edited 29 June , 2020 by michaeldr

[Guest]

Mates,

 

Thank you.

 

He appears to be a one of a number of German officers who pop up for a job then disappear?

 

Michael, nice pick up yes I missed his name in Erickson, the spelling again of this German name?

 

I may have missed it, but Erickson appears to have missed the fiction between Sanders and Esat over his (Reimann) being sent to Kemal, like the Offical history does.

 

Thank you all

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[emrezmen]

I couldn't find "Reimann" on Wolf's list. But his name also appears in the war diary of 19th Division. See:

 

 

"Rayman Bey is the liaison officer of the Army Headquarters. His job should be described in this way."
Commanding Officer Third Army Corps  
Esad
 

Note at the bottom is particularly interesting:
"This man (Rayman) is a liaison officer. He pose as a staff officer despite the division's staff is already complete."
 

Some Turkish historians argue that he was the same person with Rudolf Schierholz but I don't think so. 

Edited 30 June , 2020 by emrezmen

[AOK4]

58 minutes ago, emrezmen said:

I couldn't find "Reimann" on Wolf's list.

 

You should look better, he is there, as can be seen in google books.

[Guest]

Emrezmem,

 

Mate you make an interesting comment

 

"Some Turkish historians argue that he was the same person with Rudolf Schierholz but I don't think so"

 

What do they say about him?

 

I have a little on him but only at the Kumkale area in April 1915;

 

Schierholz (or Schierhaltz) Rudolf    Maj (LtCol)    shown Commander of the Menderes Western Forces (Bn/39th Regt 2xBns/31st Regt) 4-15 - CO 9th Regt (Ottoman) 1915 to CO 146th Regt at Maan 4-17 - Kurmay Subay okulunda Ögretmen 9. Piyade Alayi Komutani (Teacher at the Staff Officer School 9th Infantry Area Commander)    1914-17    (born at Rauba Meißen DoD 8-12-17) of dysentry at Maan from 108th Saxon Infantry Regt 
 

Cheers

 

S.B

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

They can't be the same. Schierholz was originally from IR 182, although he was z.D. since 20.2.1914 (having left the army), but still "died in Turkish service) according to the Ehrenrangliste. (and both names are in the Ehrenrangliste, so not the same person)

 

Jan

[Guest]

Jan,

 

Sorry mate, are you saying he was not from the 108 Saxon Regt?

 

The Verlustlisten 1. Weltkrieg shows only one man named Rudolf?

 

If not him can you give any details on the right man?

 

list	Reg. Or similar	status	GOV Id	Rank	Notice	Date of birth	output	date	page
	Schierholz	Johann	Husum	Prussia 1258			HUSSUMJO44ML				1918-10-03		26725
	Schierholz	John	Hude, Husum	Prussia 321	Infantry Regiment 84		object_352724				1915-09-07		8606
	Schierholz	Julius	Hamburg	Prussia 822			adm_369020				1917-05-01		18332
	Schierholz	Julius	Hamburg	Prussia 866			adm_369020				1917-06-23		19290
	Schierholz	Karl	Schöningstedt, Stormarn	Prussia 864			object_1128107				1917-06-21		19234
	Schierholz	Karl	Herford	Prussia 1018			HERORDJO42IC				1917-12-19		22139
	Schierholz	Ludwig	Minden	Prussia 660	Infantry Regiment 161		MINDENJO42LH				1916-10-16		15562
	Schierholz	Otto	Boberg, Stormarn	Prussia 825			object_1082318				1917-05-04		18371
	Schierholz	Otto	Boberg	Prussia 880							1917-07-10		19553
	Schierholz	Otto	Boberg, Stormarn	Prussia 969			object_1082318				1917-10-22		21257
	Schierholz	Rudolf	Rauba, Meissen	Saxony 485			REUUBAJO61PE				1918-02-14		22717
	Schierholz	Theodor	Detmold	Prussian prisoners of war returned 19	Infantry Regiment 457		DETOL1JO41KW				1919-06-04		30370
	Schierholz	Theodor	Detmold	Prussia 1311	Infantry Regiment 457	missing	DETOL1JO41KW				1918-12-07		28135
	Schierholz	Walter	Hamburg	Prussia 314	Landwehr Infantry Regiment 31		adm_369020				1915-08-30		8442
	Schierholz	Wilhelm	Liebenau, Nienburg	Prussia

[AOK4]

Yes, that's him, but he is listed with IR 182 according to the Ehrenrangliste des ehemaligen deutschen Heeres.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[bierast]

Hptm. Rudolf Schierholz was awarded the Ritterkreuz of the Saxon Militär-St.Heinrichs-Orden (highest Saxon and oldest German gallantry order) for his role at Gallipoli. He is described as an officer of IR 182 in peacetime - a unit with which, incidentally, he could not have begun his peacetime career as it was only formed in 1912 (it was Germany's youngest peacetime infantry regiment). Perhaps the far more prestigious SR 108 was his previous regiment prior to that, and he preferred to wear its far more distinctive and glamorous uniform while in his wartime post.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Thank you this, but I could not translate his history?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[bierast]

The body of the citation is roughly as follows in English:

 

"Hptm. Schierholz was the first officer to enter retaken Kum Kale after the landing attempt by French troops on 25.4.1915 during the fighting for the Dardanelles. Immediately after the battle for one day and two nights straight he personally supervised the retrieval of all of the wounded from the burning town under heavy fire from enemy naval guns. As a result of having repulsed the landing attempts of two strong enemy reconnaissance forces in his capacity as independent detachment leader of coastal defence of the 3rd Ottoman Division, he succeeded in safeguarding the Asiatic coast from further attacks. Subsequently he spent months on the Gallipoli peninsula supervising the development of the defensive position on a flank at Anaforta under constant enemy fire. Throughout the conduct of all of these operations he distinguished himself by outstanding gallantry and boldness."

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Thank you,

 

I take it you know about the Saxon Army in German service.

 

I show two other Saxons with the Ottoman Army 

 

Hesler Friedrich Wilhelm von, Observer Airforce Jasta 300 4-16 RTG 10-16 - Flieger-Abteilung 300 also shown awarded the Ritterkreuz of the Saxon Militär-St.Heinrichs-Orden

(1891 at Wuppertal-Elberfeld died 1950) Saxon from 2. Königlich-Sächsisches Infanterie Regiment Nr. 101 "Kaiser Wilhelm, König von Preußen" to FAR 31 to FAA 31 shot down near Grojec in Poland together with Ganter (Gandert) (P) by Russian ground fire on 10-10-14 - Observer to Bülow - Böthkamp shown with von Below (P) in Rumpler CI shot down BE 2c with Lt Edwards/Brown 14 Sqn RFC near Romani 11-8-16 with Below (P) in Rumpler CI shot down two Sopwith Baby (8135) & Schneider (3777) (SubLt Bankes-Price KIA/Mann RNAS from Ben My Chree) 17-9-16 near El Arish RTG 10-16 to Stabsbildoffizier for Kofl 3 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

 

and

Meissner Heinrich August (Pasha)     Civilian    civil engineering in the Ottoman Empire - Bagdad Railway Mesopotamia & Ottoman military railway system in Palestine 

(1862 in Leipzig died 1940) Saxon to Mesopotamia mentioned by Kress in book

 

Do you have any others in Ottoman Service?

 

Cheers

S.B

[bierast]

Here's von Hesler's citation for the MStHO (note that 101 was a Grenadier-Regiment and wore the Litzen on collar and cuffs - expect to see them in photos of him you may find):



While looking through my MStHO database I also found the citations for Major Kretzschmar, a former staff officer of Saxon 24. Infanterie-Division who served as CoS with 6th Ottoman Army...



...and Oberstleutnant (Ottoman Oberst) Nicolai, a Saxon staff officer who was already in Ottoman service before the war and commanded 3rd Ottoman Division in 1915.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Thank you for these men.

 

I notice I record Kretzschmar as;

 

Kretzschmar Hans-Wilhelm     Maj    CofS 6th Army Mesopotamia    1916-17    (not identified)? 
 

So Kretzschmar Johannes is new to me?

 

Now I am at a loss which one is correct?

 

I also show this officer

 

Kretzschmar   (possibly Hans-Wilhelm)  LtCol    7th Ordu Kurmay Baskani (7th Army Chief of Staff)

 

I am unsure if these two are the same man 

 

My only hope is Wolf's book may clear these up? (if it ever gets here)?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[AOK4]

5 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

 

Thank you for these men.

 

I notice I record Kretzschmar as;

 

Kretzschmar Hans-Wilhelm     Maj    CofS 6th Army Mesopotamia    1916-17    (not identified)? 
 

So Kretzschmar Johannes is new to me?

 

Now I am at a loss which one is correct?

 

I also show this officer

 

Kretzschmar   (possibly Hans-Wilhelm)  LtCol    7th Ordu Kurmay Baskani (7th Army Chief of Staff)

 

I am unsure if these two are the same man 

 

My only hope is Wolf's book may clear these up? (if it ever gets here)?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

 

A simple search on google reveals the page in google books:

Kretzschmer, Hans-Wilhelm - Major - Saxon Army - 1916/1917 - As Turkish Lieutenant-Colonel, Military Mission and Chief of the General Staff of the Second and then Sixth Turkish Armies as successor to Colonel von Gleich.

 

Hans is short for Johannes, Wilhelm is then his second name.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

I bow to your wisdom here

 

A Simpson voice over "dooo"

 

Cheers and many thanks

 

S.B

[Guest]

Mate,

 

AOK 4 I notice this man was killed with a Saxon Regt on the Western Front, do you have any details on him?

 

Kirsten     Maj (LtCol) Cav    Deutsche Militär-Mission in der Türkei unit 3rd Army 1914/15 Caucasus Sivas'ta 1. Süvari Alayi Komutani Bagimsiz süvari tugayinin Komutani (Commander of 1st Cavalry Regt in Sivas Commander of independent cavalry brigade) - shown pre war CO 1st Ottoman Cav Regt to Dardenelles     1914-16    (KIA 1917) at Warneton RTG to CO 177th (12th Royal Saxon) Infantry (32nd Div) Western Front shown in Klaus Wolf's Book
 

Cheers

 

S.B

[AOK4]

Lucas Kirsten was born in Crimmitschau on 21 May 1874 and served in Ulanenen-Regiment 21, where was z.D. since 19 January 1914. He had received the Ritterkreuz of the Militär-Sankt-Heinrichs-Orden in 1901 for the China Expedition and was made a Commander 2nd Class for his leadership op IR 103 during the Battle of the Somme on 21 August 1916 near Estrées and Soyécourt. He later became CO of IR 177 and was killed on 10 December 1917 during a reconnaissance of the front line near Warneton. There was a funeral service in Bousbecque after which the body was repatriated.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

many thanks that helps a lot.

 

Nice one

 

S.B