1 murder 2 shot at dawn.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Myrtle said:

The Fed ( The South Wales Miners' Federation) was founded in 1898 so the miners had a number of years before the War to become unionised 

There 's a book named" The Fed" by Hywel Francis and  David Smith, which provides a detailed 20th century history of the unionisation of the South Wales miners.

At the moment I'm wondering about the validity of a comment from "The Unknown Army" which says that although hundreds of thousands of miners volunteered or were taken from the pits not one of them appears to have been granted a commission.  

Thank you for the additional information Myrtle.  I do wonder if the Fed had an effect on the men’s reception of military discipline.

As regards receiving a commission, at that time such status was almost entirely wrapped in perceptions of social class and although it had become acceptable over at least a century to grant a man with working class origins a quasi officer status as quartermaster, or riding master, it was always with the caveat of ‘honorary rank’ and entirely different terms and conditions of service.  Conversely, when terrible officer attrition during WW1 forced the Army to extend its net to find suitable officers and encompass middle class grammar school boys and men from the merchant classes, it invariably excluded working men from the manual classes.  This seemed to be in part because of fears over limited education and perceived differences in morality, but also because it was felt that men in the ranks would not respond to an officer who was not seen as coming from a background of superior station to themselves.

Edited 7 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

There was an important exception to the above, but it was of no use to the miners.

The army did indeed commission men from the ranks, but they had to jump through a lot of hoops: improve their education to the First Class Army Certificate, be under 26 years of age, be a corporal or senior, be unmarried. This was in the period from mid-Victorian to 1914. One such rose to Field Marshal  and never managed to "speak proper". The annual percentage pre-war was usually about 2% of all regular commissions.

Once war was declared the rules for commissioning regular soldiers were progressively relaxed, almost reduced to one's commanding officer certifying that he would have the man as an officer. Rather a big hoop to jump through. 6713 permanent commissions were granted to rankers during the war, although this figure includes substantial numbers from non working-class backgrounds. Source Statistics of the Military Effort

One regiment which I have studied had a slow but steady commissioning of its pre-war regulars right through the war ....... one can see why a rifle and bayonet man with the right qualifications might wish for a little more pay and comfort.

As I said, no help to 1914 volunteer miners and later conscripts, but there were aitches dropped and some port passed in the wrong direction by other than QMs and Riding Masters.

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/07/2020 at 16:45, Muerrisch said:

There was an important exception to the above, but it was of no use to the miners.

The army did indeed commission men from the ranks, but they had to jump through a lot of hoops: improve their education to the First Class Army Certificate, be under 26 years of age, be a corporal or senior, be unmarried. This was in the period from mid-Victorian to 1914. One such rose to Field Marshal  and never managed to "speak proper". The annual percentage pre-war was usually about 2% of all regular commissions.

Once war was declared the rules for commissioning regular soldiers were progressively relaxed, almost reduced to one's commanding officer certifying that he would have the man as an officer. Rather a big hoop to jump through. 6713 permanent commissions were granted to rankers during the war, although this figure includes substantial numbers from non working-class backgrounds. Source Statistics of the Military Effort

One regiment which I have studied had a slow but steady commissioning of its pre-war regulars right through the war ....... one can see why a rifle and bayonet man with the right qualifications might wish for a little more pay and comfort.

As I said, no help to 1914 volunteer miners and later conscripts, but there were aitches dropped and some port passed in the wrong direction by other than QMs and Riding Masters.

 

I entirely agree, and when I referred to "men from the merchant classes" it was precisely them that in my mind's eye were dropping their aitches and passing port in reverse, not that they had much opportunity for formal regimental dinners.  It was men of the manual work classes, such as, but not exclusive to the miners, that I was referring to as not having the same opportunity for a non-quartermaster/riding master commission, as raised by Myrtle in her comment.

Edited 11 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Myrtle]

On 07/07/2020 at 15:51, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for the additional information Myrtle.  I do wonder if the Fed had an effect on the men’s reception of military discipline.

As regards receiving a commission, at that time such status was almost entirely wrapped in perceptions of social class and although it had become acceptable over at least a century to grant a man with working class origins a quasi officer status as quartermaster, or riding master, it was always with the caveat of ‘honorary rank’ and entirely different terms and conditions of service.  Conversely, when terrible officer attrition during WW1 forced the Army to extend its net to find suitable officers and encompass middle class grammar school boys and men from the merchant classes, it invariably excluded working men from the manual classes.  This seemed to be in part because of fears over limited education and perceived differences in morality, but also because it was felt that men in the ranks would not respond to an officer who was not seen as coming from a background of superior station to themselves.

 

Thank you Frogsmile - very interesting. I did wonder if one of the Miners may have attained Officer rank in the Engineers in relation to the tunnelling on the Western Front. 

[Myrtle]

On 07/07/2020 at 16:58, FROGSMILE said:

 

I entirely agree, and when I referred to "men from the merchant classes" it was precisely them that in my mind's eye were dropping their aitches and passing port in reverse, not that they had much opportunity for formal regimental dinners.  It was men of the manual work classes, such as, but not exclusive to the miners that I was referring to as not having the same opportunity for a non-quartermaster/riding master commission, as raised by Myrtle in her comment.

 

On 07/07/2020 at 16:45, Muerrisch said:

There was an important exception to the above, but it was of no use to the miners.

The army did indeed commission men from the ranks, but they had to jump through a lot of hoops: improve their education to the First Class Army Certificate, be under 26 years of age, be a corporal or senior, be unmarried. This was in the period from mid-Victorian to 1914. One such rose to Field Marshal  and never managed to "speak proper". The annual percentage pre-war was usually about 2% of all regular commissions.

Once war was declared the rules for commissioning regular soldiers were progressively relaxed, almost reduced to one's commanding officer certifying that he would have the man as an officer. Rather a big hoop to jump through. 6713 permanent commissions were granted to rankers during the war, although this figure includes substantial numbers from non working-class backgrounds. Source Statistics of the Military Effort

One regiment which I have studied had a slow but steady commissioning of its pre-war regulars right through the war ....... one can see why a rifle and bayonet man with the right qualifications might wish for a little more pay and comfort.

As I said, no help to 1914 volunteer miners and later conscripts, but there were aitches dropped and some port passed in the wrong direction by other than QMs and Riding Masters.

 

Thank you Gentlemen. 

 

Muerrisch - thank you for the information - I hadn't realised that men from the ranks had to be under 26 years old and unmarried pre WW1, to  receive a commission. 

[Muerrisch]

36 minutes ago, Myrtle said:

 

 

Thank you Gentlemen. 

 

Muerrisch - thank you for the information - I hadn't realised that men from the ranks had to be under 26 years old and unmarried pre WW1, to  receive a commission. 

Please let me rephrase:

 

Pre WW I, men from the ranks had to be under 26 and unmarried.

Once into the war, needs must .....!

[Myrtle]

6 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Please let me rephrase:

 

Pre WW I, men from the ranks had to be under 26 and unmarried.

Once into the war, needs must .....!

 

Yes thank you Muerrisch - that's what I wrote and understood from your post. Possibly grammatically my reply read otherwise.