Always in Pals Regiments?

[ss002d6252]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

If I'm reading that correctly and we believe William Fred Clarey to have died in Q4 1918, then surely the date of death on the card, 4-10-18 applies to him. Can we also therefore assume the cause of death, "Haemorrhage" also applies to him. The Silver War Badge Roll transcription on FindMyPast just shows cause of discharge as "Sickness"

See the ledger entry for Wm Fred - the top right hand side confirms his death as 4/10/18. Same ledger also confirms Harold's death as 1 Feb 1922.
https://www.fold3.com/image/645431213?terms=clarey,1019,33029

 

I concur that the widow's branch was an error, everything indicates both of them were single when they died.

 

Craig

[Matlock1418]

9 hours ago, PRC said:

If I'm reading that correctly and we believe William Fred Clarey to have died in Q4 1918, then surely the date of death on the card, 4-10-18 applies to him. Can we also therefore assume the cause of death, "Haemorrhage" also applies to him

As Craig has again above identified from the ledger his date of death is probably not really a major issue

I would agree very likely on the latter point - cause.  Certainly I think [as a non-medic] haemorrhage was/is commonly a major part of pulmonary tuberculosis and thus likely the ultimate cause of death - The 'final nail in the coffin' so to speak. 

But just in case, to confirm it wasn't something else like an accident, we really do need a DC to confirm on both points

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Unfortunately without knowing the sickness he was discharged with, that probably just got a great deal harder. Let's hope there was a coroners inquest and someone can turn up a newspaper report.

Re: CWGC There is already a lot of possible circumstantial evidence as to what his death might have been caused by, but as you imply that probably won't be good enough for CWGC.

If available your suggested sources would certainly help.  

But as above - A DC would probably really help.

I am pretty sure the OP would probably in the market to get a DC https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp - especially if a CWGC commemoration was a potential prize

That's probably for another day, [I know it can take a bit of time] though sooner rather than later would probably also help us here at GWF.

• For clarification for the OP/Sean - will CWGC accept a PDF version, or will they want an official copy??? [I never been that far before, so don't know CWGC's standards]

:-) M

 

Edited 27 June , 2020 by Matlock1418
Sorting out a weird formatting issue

[PRC]

11 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

A DC would really help.

 

Bit of a horse & cart situation.

 

A death certificate will confirm whether a coroners inquest took place and therefore if there any is mileage in hunting down contemporary newspaper reports to, pardon the metaphor, put  more flesh on the bones of whether it was service related.

 

But newspaper reports may help make the decision of whether to go for a death certificate with the associated cost.

 

With regards to newspapers I struck out on FindMyPast with the search criteria I used, (variations on Clarey & Liverpool, Waterloo, Crosby and Coroner). There are some members here who have referenced they were regular visitors to the Liverpool library, (apologies, can't remember their names off the top of my head), so maybe a possibility when the libraries re-open.

 

BTW @Matlock1418 have you not hassled your local county library service about remote access to whatever genealogy service(s) they would offer onsite. It's been an absolute godsend for me. Similarly, while its not the British Newspaper Archive, mine had offered remote access to The Times digital archive even pre-Covid.

 

Good luck,

Peter

 

[Matlock1418]

 

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

Bit of a horse & cart situation.

 

A death certificate ...

I suspect the OP might go for a DC as it is a family one.  [I wouldn't suggest it yet if it wasn't for a family member]

 

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

BTW @Matlock1418 have you not hassled your local county library service about remote access to whatever genealogy service(s) they would offer onsite. It's been an absolute godsend for me. Similarly, while its not the British Newspaper Archive, mine had offered remote access to The Times digital archive even pre-Covid.

No I haven't.

To be frank I've not seriously considered it

["money is tight" being the usual excuse offered by another local library service, which is bigger - who also can't even offer an in-library service!] 

Good idea to try - might just give it a go now you have suggested.

Cheers. [No, not cyber-pints = too early!]

:-) M

[tootrock]

Not sure if this helps.

According to the Liverpool Echo, William Fred Carey, son of William and Charlotte, died at home, 21, Mulgrave Street on 4 October 1918.

Martin

[Matlock1418]

Sean,

Just to put in the thread whilst I think about it ... Craig/ss002d6252 said "The other 'uncles' could be from your father's mother's side  (the Youngs) as there aren't enough brothers on the Cleary side"

Alternatively or additionally they could be from the earlier generation of Cleary/Clarey or McEachern - Many a Great/Grand Uncle commonly known as "Uncle"

As the last is a distinctive family name, and thus possibly the easiest [though that may perhaps not turn out to be the case!?] I had a quick look at the pension records - there are 8 pension records for McEarchern - 4 records seem to be for deaths, incl. 2 for Samuel H #10659 from Liverpool it might appear = another project for another day I suspect.

 

Meantime under the current circumstances I suggest you enjoy talking with your dad and getting his oral history captured before it is sadly lost as of course it will eventually be - not if you have your way it would seem. Go for it!

[unfortunately so many on GWF have our regrets of not seizing the chances available whilst we had them]

I hope your dad is finding this thread's findings interesting - and any more further input is welcomed as we try to assist.

All the best to you both/all your family.

:-) M

35 minutes ago, tootrock said:

According to the Liverpool Echo, William Fred Carey, son of William and Charlotte, died at home, 21, Mulgrave Street on 4 October 1918.

tootrock: Just for the record/audit trail - are you able to help out with the date of that Liverpool Echo report please?

:-) M 

Edited 27 June , 2020 by Matlock1418
update correction and addition

[davidbohl]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

date of that Liverpool Echo

Published: Friday 04 October 1918
Newspaper: Liverpool Echo

Dave

 

By the way I don't wish to complicate things too much but Clarey is such a rare name in Liverpool at the time I saw these in the newspapers on the BNA.  24/10/1917

 

Might be older sister Nora T?

 

 

 

Edited 27 June , 2020 by davidbohl
newspapers

[PRC]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

I

On the 13th July 1916 he was transferred to II / 285th Brigade RFA, (later shown as “D” Battery, 285th Brigade). He went out to France on the 7th February 1917, was initially treated at the end of February for inflammation of Larynx and then returned to duty but on the 14th June 1917 he was admitted to 51 C.C.S with Pulmonary Tuberculosis. He returned to the UK on the 20th June 1917 via 1 Canadian General Hospital at Etaples. He was admitted to the Military Hospital at Chatham, (and would actually remain there until the 14th August).

 

 

War Diary almost certainly won't mention him by name but you may be able to identify arrival date for a draft, plus an idea of what they were up to during his few months with them. He received FP No2 at the start of June 1917 for failing to obey an order, but of course it may be as a result of the condition he was in.

 

285th Brigade War Diary for the 1st February 1917 to 30th April 1919 is currently available as a free download from the National Archives, as they all are if you register for an account. Might be worth squirrelling away for a read later.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354968

 

13 hours ago, PRC said:

On his submission to the discharge board he states his full name as Harold Barnes Clarey and his unit as 276 Brigade, RFA.

He couldn’t state what kind of work he desired until after he had received sanatorium treatment. He had served for 10 months with the B.E.F.

 

Can't be quite so clear about when Harold was in France. However as the only Service Medals he received was the Victory Medal and the Britsh War Medal we know he didn't enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916. By the start of May 1917 he was in a Military Hospital in Woking. Fortunately the Brigade War Diary covers from the 1st October 1915 to the 30th April 1919.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354853

 

45 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

Might be older sister Nora T?

 

Good thought, but if indeed Norah is a sister, (juries out on that, then she had married in 1915 and by the point the bodies were washed ashore would have been Norah Capelton. Of course it could have been an old envelope that the sailor concerned had hung on to as a keepsake, but otherwise would be unlikely the bodies had gone into the water prior to the marriage and that the envelope would have still been legible.

 

Regards,

Peter

[sc-em]

It would seem the bar bill is being run up nicely. 

I gave this link to my mum to read last night. She is the real buff in the house having done her own family's family tree quite a long way back.(my avatar photo is from her side)

 She disputes quite a lot of what my dad says, and she has some paper work she is going to try and dig out. She knew the Nora (less the h) and the assumption that Charlotte lived with one of the sons when widowed from William also seems to be accurate. (she has a memory for detail second to non) The rather spooky coincidence is that my brother is a T Clarey and we have a cottage not far from Barmouth. Could these be the 6 that have somehow, over time, been the ones my dad has etched in his memory.

I have thought about sharing these records etc with my dad, but having found out so much that seems at odds with his own recollections and memories, I don't think it would be fair to shatter some of the beliefs he has obviously had all his life. It is now just a line of inquiry for me and mine I feel, one which I am grateful for your assistance.

I will check, but I am sure one of the CWGC Clarey's had Chatham mentioned.I may be in error, so will have a look. (I was wrong) An Albert Clarey was from Chatham.

Why would a service number change? They seem to have both contracted illnesses, but do appear to have been in some theatre of War. Harold for over a year if I have read this correctly. RFA at the Somme maybe? (another coincidence my dad was in the RA for his National Service) War records at Kew?

I do need to get a book so I can draw the links and name, or a large A2 piece of paper

 

There's a Fred, William and J Clarey in the CWGC records one of Liverpool  Regiment. Other seems to have different parentage anyway.

Edited 27 June , 2020 by sc-em

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, sc-em said:

Why would a service number change?

 

Both Archie and Harold original enlisted in the Territorial Force and received a four digit service number specific to that unit. At the start of 1917 all men still on the establishment of a Territorial Force unit received a new six digit service number. The number blocks used were still specific to each unit and so weren't entirely unique - that would come in the adoption of an Army wide numbering scheme post 1920. It does however tie in with both men being in a TF unit still.

 

Both men were serving in the Royal Field Artillery - Archie after the renumbering was 676474 and Harold was 690269.

The following number blocks were allocated for the renumbering

675001 – 680000: 285 Brigade, RFA/ 2/1 West Lancashire

690001 – 695000: 278 Brigade, RFA/ 1/4 West Lancashire (BROKEN UP OCT 16)

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-tf-artillery-in-1917/

 

So possibly Harold went out with the 278 Brigade and was transferred to 276 Brigade when his original unit was broken up.

The 278 Brigade War Diary may give an idea of where the men were dispersed to - but probably worth checking Harolds' papers first to confirm I'm not having a senior moment

 

War Diary is here:- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354856

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 27 June , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, sc-em said:

There's a Fred, William and J Clarey in the CWGC records one of Liverpool  Regiment.

I'm thinking you must be considering a wider Clarey field by now.

As explained at the start of your thread the regiment/unit to which a soldier was posted was commonly not related to his home area.

So, for now any way, concentrating only on the British Army units some checking will be required - Pension records may assist as a pensioner's/pensioners' address(es) are often very handy [though also often not definitive] and is where I will next go back and look [rather speculatively] just in case something really leaps out - otherwise your wider genealogy will need to be more established first.

EDIT: of the nine British Army on CWGC all have Pension records - NoK details are essentially as CWGC, though some extra NoK info for: 

Fred #3/9671 widow: Mary Ann, Bradford;

George William #207989 mother: Woolwich;

James #11063 mother Martha: father John, Mansfield Woodhouse

J #14392 sister Bridget: Liverpool

And approx. 25-30 other records related to disability.

At the moment none looked especially 'exciting' for your cause

As said before, I can't access SR at present - though you/others may be able to. END EDIT

Would probably help if you can get your pen and paper going ;-)

Remember that CWGC are only officially commemorated for war-related deaths until 31 August 1921 - so, as we have already discovered, CWGC will not necessarily be totally definitive.

Other sources such as newspapers [etc!] may offer up more potential candidates to add to the list for checking.

Your / your mum's knowledge of your family is likely to be vital for cross-checking.

:-) M

Edited 27 June , 2020 by Matlock1418
Addition

[PRC]

A few more dribs and drabs.

 

The burial of an Archie Clarey, aged 30, took place at Thurstaston, Cheshire on the 11th September 1928.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3BZ-NWP

 

The only cemetery I could locate at Thurstaston was the churchyard at St. Bartholomews.

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery-browse/England/Merseyside/Metropolitan-Borough-of-Wirral/Thurstaston?id=city_417728

No headstone picture that I could find online. It would need to be confirmed before visiting and there is no guarantee that it will add any useful information, but always a possibility.

 

The death of a Mabel Clarey, aged 17, was recorded in the Liverpool District in Q4 1924.

 

So by the time your father was born in 1931 your grandfather could well have already seen 5 of his siblings die plus your great grandfather - are these perhaps the 6 that might have been said to have died as a result of the war?

 

The alternative is to build that family tree and look for cousins of your grandfather - but even then it's likely to be quite arbitrary as to which Great War service deaths make up the six.

 

Good luck with your search and keep us updated.

 

Peter

 

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, sc-em said:

my dad was in the RA for his National Service)

If he/you are interested think he can personally apply for his own records https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-your-own-records

[you won't be able to whilst he is alive https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records] 

Website links above

:-) M

 

[Matlock1418]

 

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

The only cemetery I could locate at Thurstaston was the churchyard at St. Bartholomews.

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery-browse/England/Merseyside/Metropolitan-Borough-of-Wirral/Thurstaston?id=city_417728

No headstone picture that I could find online. It would need to be confirmed before visiting and there is no guarantee that it will add any useful information, but always a possibility.

You might just get lucky and find a family grave headstone / kerb with lots of names - possibly a huge memorial!

If you can't physically get there yourself there is another GWF sub-forum for wants / photo requests - if you can confirm there is actually something, and / or exactly where to look.

:-) M

 

[sc-em]

Just downloading the War Diary. As for visiting the grave, I am in Staffs so not far from Cheshire anyway, so would be a drive or ride up to see what's what.

As my granddad is dead, I assume I could apply for his war records, or is that just for National Service?

It could be worse. I could be a Jones or a Smith to track back.....

[sc-em]

That diary is fascinating. On just a quick scan it appears 278th was in or around the Somme.

Looking at the 285 Brigade there is a year's gap from Feb 1916 to 1917, or so it seems.

[Matlock1418]

34 minutes ago, sc-em said:

As my granddad is dead, I assume I could apply for his war records, or is that just for National Service?

Sorry - We risk going going 'off-topic' and we don't want to break the forum rules and upset the moderators any more than I probably have :-/ [sorry Mods!] = so we had better stop this line here.

We can't really discuss post-ww1 service [except briefly] and yet direct results such as deaths of servicemen from related illnesses do seem in scope. so we better stick to those matters more firmly.

GWF isn't a general genealogy forum either - but of course we couldn't have got where we are with military matters except for having found a few threads - so caution along those lines too.

:-) M

[sc-em]

I take your point and heed your words. Regardless, I am indeed indebted to you for your help thus far. I shall endeavour to restrict my queries to WW1 but as you say, one line of inquiry generally leads to another.

I await what other info my mum can muster for more pertinent dates and names.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, sc-em said:

Looking at the 285 Brigade there is a year's gap from Feb 1916 to 1917, or so it seems

 

285 Brigade were part of 57th Division and didn't go overseas until February 1917, (so Archie probably went out with them)

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/57th-2nd-west-lancashire-division/

I see the National Archive does have a diary covering from the 1st September 1915 to the 28th February 1916. Without downloading it I don't know the contents but suspect it's one of those anomalies with the unit starting to keep a diary while still in the UK in anticipation of deployment and then abandonning it.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354967

 

2 hours ago, sc-em said:

As my granddad is dead, I assume I could apply for his war records, or is that just for National Service?

 

The process for applying for service records for anyone who served after 1920 has already been briefly referenced earlier in the thread, so we are already in the cyber dog-house. To save you trawling back here's the link to the MoD page https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

Although it emphasises close family, my understanding from what I've seen written on the forum is that kind of drops away if the individual concerned would be over 100 years old - which would be the case with your grandfather.

 

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry - We risk going going 'off-topic' and we don't want to break the forum rules and upset the moderators any more than I probably have :-/ [sorry Mods!] = so we had better stop this line here.

We can't really discuss post-ww1 service [except briefly] and yet direct results such as deaths of servicemen from related illnesses do seem in scope. so we better stick to those matters more firmly.

GWF isn't a general genealogy forum either - but of course we couldn't have got where we are with military matters except for having found a few threads - so caution along those lines too.

 

1 hour ago, sc-em said:

I take your point and heed your words. Regardless, I am indeed indebted to you for your help thus far. I shall endeavour to restrict my queries to WW1 but as you say, one line of inquiry generally leads to another.

 

As well as the option of PM'ing, you both have more than enough posts I believe to start a thread in Skindles if you would like some wider input on a non-Great War query.

 

All the best,

Peter

[sc-em]

Thank you Peter. That is certainly an option to be getting on with. I forwarded this to my mum as I mentioned so she will be looking at the thread. I have some cross referencing to do.

 

[clk]

Hi Sean,

 

2 hours ago, sc-em said:

That diary is fascinating. On just a quick scan it appears 278th was in or around the Somme

 

If you wanted to add more context to it, it would be worth considering downloading the higher level diaries of the division for the Commander Royal Artillery, and the Division Headquarters (General Staff), as they often contain things such as maps, orders, and reports on operations that are 'extras' to the lower level diaries.

 

Regards

Chris

[sc-em]

 

Quote

 

I can see i will be taking a lot of reading with me when I go to France. I already have the battlefield guide by Holt and the First World War by Martin Gilbert. It's a good job I am going for three weeks.

Just downloaded this for 1917. Is this what you mean?

Title: Headquarters Branches and Services: General Staff.
 

[clk]

Hi Sean,

 

if we are talking about 278 Bde RFA, as part of 55 Division (I think), the CRA diaries are here, and the Division HQ (General Staff) diaries here. Ignore the hits that appear in the format 'WO 95/xxxx', as they only enable you to browse how they have been broken down. The ones that you need (the actual date chunk free downloads) are formatted/labeled as 'WO 95/xxxx/y. I hope that makes sense.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

I don't know if I mentioned it on your other topic, but where you find map references there is help on how to read them here. You might also find this website useful to identify places that you may wish to visit.

Edited 27 June , 2020 by clk

[sc-em]

On 26/06/2020 at 17:52, ss002d6252 said:

2 possibles to the men in the 1901 census

Archie Clarey of 21 St Lukes Road
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266264%2F02887&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266264%2F214%2F2887

Also a Harold Barnes Carey of the same address

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266264%2F02929&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266264%2F216%2F2929

 

Father noted as William Clarey of St Lukes Road

 

Craig

Hi Craig, I have downloaded the info for Archie and Harold, should I be able to find the William who was in RAMC. If I can find out how to do it then I could also find the record for the Walter Jones (the great granddad of my colleague) that led me to search my family. I have a find my past membership. Do I need more? Thanks

Sean

[ss002d6252]

21 minutes ago, sc-em said:

Hi Craig, I have downloaded the info for Archie and Harold, should I be able to find the William who was in RAMC. If I can find out how to do it then I could also find the record for the Walter Jones (the great granddad of my colleague) that led me to search my family. I have a find my past membership. Do I need more? Thanks

Sean

Only the two records I can see  (Archie and Harold) - the records reference William as their father.

 

Craig