Always in Pals Regiments?

[sc-em]

Funnily enough, I was talking to my mum earlier and she was saying that according to her, the two aunties of my dad, Flo and Franci, had both insisted that their grandfather had come from Brightlingsea Essex, so there we have a connection. But are they a different branch and the above William and Margaret from Ireland are my dad's great great grandfather. I need to draw a tree!

[clk]

Hi Sean,

 

If you have access to Ancestry, they have a 'public tree' (link) which seems pretty well researched, with some cross referencing to supporting documentation.

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

Regards

Chris

[PRC]

2 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Sean,

 

If you have access to Ancestry, they have a 'public tree' (link) which seems pretty well researched, with some cross referencing to supporting documentation.

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

Regards

Chris

 

Has most of what I was about to post from the deaths records for England & Wales !

 

William F. Clarey, aged 21, death registered in the Toxteth Park District of Lancashire in Q4 1918.

Archie Clarey, aged 30, death registered in the Wirral District of Cheshire in Q3 1928.

Harold B Clarey, aged 22, death registered in the Toxteth Park District of Lancashire in Q1 1922.

Charles Clarey, aged 3, death registered in the West Derby District of Lancashire in Q4 1914.

 

So brothers may have died during the war, and some possibly afterwards as a consequence of serving in the war, but no obvious signs of them dieing in the war.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

Edited 26 June , 2020 by PRC
Clearly still can't spell Clarey

[sc-em]

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Apologies for taking us a step back.

 

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 24 year old married woman, Charlotte Clarey, born Bow, London, was recorded as a visitor at 42 Lyon Road, Waterloo, Lancashire. This was the household of a married woman Annie E. Rhodes, (aged 28, born Liverpool), Annies’ four children and Annie’s brother-in-law. There are no other Clarey children with her.

 

So children I can see so far are:

1)    William Fred Clarey

• William Fred Clarey, mothers maiden name “McCachen” birth registered West Derby District Q4 1896
• 1901 Census: There is a 4 year old William “Clary”, born Waterloo, Lancashire, recorded as a visitor in the household of John & Margaret Faraday. John was from Ireland & Margaret from Canada. They and their children were living at 43 Moore Street, Bootle cum Linacre, Lancashire. On the same night his father Williams’ household included a guest, Margaret Faraday, aged 16, born Seaforth. Looking at the Faraday household, all the children born between the ages of 20 and 8 are shown as born Seaforth.
• 1911 Census: William Fred Clarey, (14), born Waterloo, Lancashire.

2)    Archie Clarey.

• Archie Clarey, mothers maiden name McEachen birth registered West Derby District Q1 1898
• 1901 Census: Archie Clarey, (3), born Liverpool
• 1911 Census: Archie Clarey, (13), born Waterloo, Lancashire

3)    Harold Barnes Clarey

• Harold Barnes Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q1, 1899.
• 1901 Census: Harold B. Clarey, (2), Born Liverpool.
• 1911 Census:Harold Barnes Clarey, (12), born Waterloo, Lancashire

4)    Fred Clarey

• Fred Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q1, 1902.
• 1911 Census: Fred Clarey, (9), born Waterloo, Lancashire

5)    Frances Clarey

• Frances Clarey, mothers’ maiden name ???, birth registered West Derby District Q3, 1903.
• 1911 Census: Frances Clarey, (7), born Waterloo, Lancashire

6)    Florence Clarey

• Florence Clarey, mothers’ maiden name ???, birth registered West Derby District Q3, 1905.
• 1911 Census: Florence Clarey, (5), born Waterloo, Lancashire

7)    Mabel Clarey

• Mabel Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q4, 1909.
• 1911 Census: Mabel Clarey, (3), born Great Crosby, Lancashire

8)    John Clarey

• John Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q4, 1909.
• 1911 Census: John Clarey, (1), born Great Crosby, Lancashire.

Plus post the censuses there is

9)    Charles Clarey

• Charles Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q3, 1911.

However that still leaves you one short on the children who were stated to still be alive when the census was taken on the 2nd April 1911.

 

A check of children born between 1894. (when William and Charlotte married) and 1911, in the West Derby District for the surname Clarey brings up only one additional match on FreeBMD. The birth of a Norah Talmage Clarey was recorded in Q1 1895. I couldn’t track down a match for her mothers’ maiden name. But on the 1901 Census there is a 6 year old Norah Clarey, born Liverpool, recorded living with her grandparents William Clarey, (57, living on own means, born Brightlingsea, Essex) and Charlotte A, (aged 48, born Liverpool) at Regents Road, Brightlingsea. The couple have two daughters, Mabel (24) and Emily, (17) – both born Liverpool. I couldn’t find her or the Grandparents on the 1911 Census but there is a marriage of a Norah T. Clarey recorded in the West Derby District in Q2 of 1915 to an Eric Capleton.

 

So for now the 9th child from before the 1911 Census eludes me.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

So if Norah's grand parents had only two daughters, then they can't be the same William and Charlotte who had the 9 children or am I missing something. The fact that they were both called William and Charlotte is all very confusing.

[sc-em]

16 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Sean,

 

If you have access to Ancestry, they have a 'public tree' (link) which seems pretty well researched, with some cross referencing to supporting documentation.

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

Regards

Chris

William looks just like my granddad. Spooky!

[Matlock1418]

23 minutes ago, clk said:

If you have access to Ancestry, they have a 'public tree' (link) which seems pretty well researched, with some cross referencing to supporting documentation.

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

Handy!

My pension cards seem to have 1918 and Harold 1922 deaths dated - just sorting the records out - watch this space

Looks like we probably have some regimental/service numbers to work with now

:-) M

[sc-em]

But 6 dying in WW1 would seem unlikely I fear.

[clk]

Hi,

 

57 minutes ago, PRC said:

William F. Clarey, aged 21, death registered in the Toxteth Park District of Lancashire in Q4 1918

 

The tree links him via a SWB record to #33029 in the RAMC - enlisted 5.9.1914, discharged due to sickness 10.11.1915 with no overseas service. Fold3 have a couple of linked pension index cards (link) which indicate that Harold and Archie served with the RFA.

 

 

Images sourced from Fold3

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edited 26 June , 2020 by clk

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, clk said:

Fold3 have a couple of linked pension index cards (link) which indicate that Harold and Archie served with the RFA.

Well that is some of my job done for me ;-0

I have others - have you got them handy or shalI I post?

:-) M

[clk]

Hi M,

 

Please do. I think that we may all trip over each other, and duplicate the effort.

 

Regards

Chris

[sc-em]

My wife's contribution. She says you are brilliant! I concur.

[clk]

Hi,

 

8 minutes ago, sc-em said:

My wife's contribution. She says you are brilliant! I concur.

 

Cyber pints all around then - with you in the chair! 

 

Regards

Chris 

[sc-em]

Indeed with cyber social distancing!

[PRC]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

William F. Clarey, aged 21, death registered in the Toxteth Park District of Lancashire in Q4 1918.

Archie Clarey, aged 30, death registered in the Wirral District of Cheshire in Q3 1928.

Harold B Clary, aged 22, death registered in the Toxteth Park District of Lancashire in Q1 1922.

Charles Clarey, aged 3, death registered in the West Derby District of Lancashire in Q4 1914.

 

I tried the Probate Calendar. Nothing for William and Harold, but when I got to Archie it was a bit of a surprise.

 

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Clarey&yearOfDeath=1928&page=2#calendar

 

Note in connection with Archie that the Probate entry just means Charlotte Clarey is a widow, not necessarily his widow.

 

And two entries down appears to be father William, who died earlier in the year, so his wife Charlotte would have been a widow at the time of Archies' death. It's probably the same Archie Clarey who is described as a bookkeeper. And possibly his death has something to do with why Williams' estate still hadn't been sorted out by 1968. Unfortunately by then the published probate calendar doesn't include details of who probate is granted to.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

[sc-em]

So the widow, Archie's mum lived with him but he dies as well as William the husband?

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, sc-em said:

My wife's contribution. She says you are brilliant! I concur.

Who me? - I agree!

But I also say that the others are too - and they are probably even better! [and better resourced!]

;-) M

 

Pension cards/ledgers as promised - All images here courtesy of the Western Front Association & Fold 3

 

 

 

 

As you can see pulmonary tuberculosis got Archie and Harold and from the first Pension card posted by CLK it seems quite possible that William Fred could possibly have had the same -  and hence all earlier getting a SWB

You need to look out for details of those Silver War Badges - should be easy enough [I just don't have a subscription that allows me to do it  locked-down at home - I normally use the local library!]

Shame we have not yet found a pension or other record that could attribute William Fred's 1918 death by which disease

As all died in England you should be able to get Death Certificates for them - William Fred's would be particularly handy in looking into the circumstances of his death

The pension records do lend some support/infer/indicate the military acknowledged some responsibility for his disease/death - but ... 

If you can find better corroborative data for his 1918 death - and if you can better attribute that disease to war service it is still possible to get a non -commemorations at CWGC retrospectively recognised [his death date would be in the recognised period for commemoration by CWGC - the others are out of date it would appear i.e. post 31 Aug 1921]

Helps to know where his body is buried though - there is another search for you - find the graves!

But you really do need to be able to build your case thoroughly for CWGC - there are GWF members and a separate team called the "In From The Cold Project" that could perhaps help you someday if you wish ... But that is probably for another day.

Well, we seem to have found you three dead uncles, if not yet six - all deaths do seem very likely, if not yet proven, to have been originating from illness due to military service.

Still likely victims of the war - just not from bullets etc. or still lying in a foreign field.

:-) M

 

EDIT: Acknowledgement that earlier and whilst typing this post others have already come to pretty much the same conclusion etc. - lots of hands stirring the pot!  Tripping over each other to help we were! ;-)

 

 

 

 

Edited 26 June , 2020 by Matlock1418
addition & Acknolwdgement

[Matlock1418]

53 minutes ago, sc-em said:

So the widow, Archie's mum lived with him but he dies as well as William the husband?

PRC has visited where I might have gone next - Probate - I am actually surprised he found something as not that common for 'ordinary' sorts of folk.

Yes Archie seemed quite wealthy by the time of his death 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Note in connection with Archie that the Probate entry just means Charlotte Clarey is a widow, not necessarily his widow.

I agree - the strong, but not proven, inference is that Archie's dad had pre-deceased him leaving his mother Charlotte, a widow - thus her possibly getting Archie's estate (No Will indicated)

From Pensions it's not yet clear when husband/dad William died as it was very common practice for a mother to receive a pension, even if her husband was still alive [though he could inherit his wife's pension in respect of her dead son(s) if she pre-deceased him] - but that should be relatively easy to get established.

EDIT: I missed this first time = In fact PRC has given you the answer above with Charlotte and Archie in the Probate record - but with an ensuing tangle thereafter it would seem.

:-) M

 

P.S. ...  just speculating that the distribution of William's money, which seems quite a lot - but doesn't seem enormous to go around so large a family [or did it?], might have started a 'small family thing' amongst the wider family!  Hence the - "We won't speak of them again!" and the subsequent 'tangle '= ??? 

As I know it does happen!!  Just a thought!!!

Edited 26 June , 2020 by Matlock1418
tpyo, strike and addition

[PRC]

I don’t think anyone has specifically mentioned there are surviving service records for Archie. He enlisted at Liverpool in the Territioral Force on the 28th April 1915, initially with the 2nd/4th West Lancs. (Howr) Brigade, R.F.A. Initially given given service number 1364, then 3278, then 676474. His home address was 21 St Lukes Road, Great Crosby, Liverpool, (the address from the 1911 Census of England & Wales)

 

His next of kin was shown as his father William of the same address.

 

He was then recorded as 19 years and 1 month old, was 5 feet 5 inches tall, with good vision and physical development. He was born in the parish of Waterloo, Liverpool in the County of Lancashire.

 

His statement of service shows his service as counting from the 28th May 1915 – but this is in error as he is then shown as Posted and embodied from the 28th April.

 

On the 13th July 1916 he was transferred to II / 285th Brigade RFA, (later shown as “D” Battery, 285th Brigade). He went out to France on the 7th February 1917, was initially treated at the end of February for inflammation of Larynx and then returned to duty but on the 14th June 1917 he was admitted to 51 C.C.S with Pulmonary Tuberculosis. He returned to the UK on the 20th June 1917 via 1 Canadian General Hospital at Etaples. He was admitted to the Military Hospital at Chatham, (and would actually remain there until the 14th August).

 

He was administratively posted to a Clearing Office on the 25th June 1917 and discharged on the 30th July 1917 as no longer physically fit to serve. He had been diagnosed with Tubercle of Lung. His address on discharge would be 21 Mulgrave Street, Princes Park, Liverpool. His character on discharge was assessed as very good.

 

His discharge papers actually state a dependants allowance was issued in respect of him – I suspect that was an allocation of his pay to his mother. He states he had been employed for two years as a Shipping Clerk prior to joining up – I can’t make out the company. While in the Army had had served as a clerk in orderly room.  On leaving the Army he was looking for “Open air Employment, South America.”

 

A pension was awarded, initially for 26 weeks.

 

(Image courtesy of FindMyPast)

(Signature from his Territorial Force agreement to serve outside the United Kingdom in the event of a National Emergency, dated 28th April 1915. There is also a handwritten letter in the file enquiring about medals).

 

Edited 26 June , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

I don’t think anyone has specifically mentioned there are surviving service records for Archie.

No, I certainly haven't - just suggested the need to look for the like for all brothers [not got access to any such records as stuck at home in lockdown] - always very handy and thanks for posting as it helps bring it together for those of us who are effectively only working one-handed!

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, clk said:

Cyber pints all around then - with you in the chair! 

Quite a bar bill racking up by now!

;-) M

[PRC]

Wouldn't mind seeing the "optics' on that one as well - the happy hour cometh

[PRC]

FindMyPast also has a few pages for 690269 Harold Clarey, Royal Horse & Royal Field Artillery. His medical discharge board was at the Military Hospital Woking early in May 1917.

 

Notification, as with Archie, of discharge was also sent to the Town Hall, Waterloo, Liverpool.

 

On his submission to the discharge board he states his full name as Harold Barnes Clarey and his unit as 276 Brigade, RFA.

Prior to joining up he was an Insurance Clerk in the employ of H.B. Williams & Co, ?????, Exchange Buildings, Liverpool.

He couldn’t state what kind of work he desired until after he had received sanatorium treatment. He had served for 10 months with the B.E.F. His address on discharge would be 21 St Lukes Street, Great Crosby, Liverpool.

 

He had originally joined the 3/4th West Lancs, (Howr) Brigade, R.F.A. on the 18th October 1915 at Liverpool, and initially was service number 1919.

 

A pension was awarded for 26 weeks.

 

 

(Image courtesy of FindMyPast, signature dated 18th October 1915.)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

Wouldn't mind seeing the "optics' on that one as well - the happy hour cometh

That reminds me I need something to help me right now - bye ...

Sleep tight!

;-) M

[Matlock1418]

You are determined to not let me go!

 

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

FindMyPast also has a few pages for 690269 Harold Clarey, Royal Horse & Royal Field Artillery.

 

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

He couldn’t state what kind of work he desired until after he had received sanatorium treatment.

Handy stuff - TB again it would seem - and attributed it would also seem - looking good for the OP [if not for Harold]

Now off I go  ... and will look in again tomorrow!

:-) M

[PRC]

3 hours ago, clk said:

Images sourced from Fold3

 

If I'm reading that correctly and we believe William Fred Clarey to have died in Q4 1918, then surely the date of death on the card, 4-10-18 applies to him. Can we also therefore assume the cause of death, "Haemorrhage" also applies to him. The Silver War Badge Roll transcription on FindMyPast just shows cause of discharge as "Sickness".

 

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

If you can find better corroborative data for his 1918 death - and if you can better attribute that disease to war service it is still possible to get a non -commemorations at CWGC retrospectively recognised [his death date would be in the recognised period for commemoration by CWGC

 

Unfortunately without knowing the sickness he was discharged with, that probably just got a great deal harder. Let's hope there was a coroners inquest and someone can turn up a newspaper report.

 

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Pension cards/ledgers as promised - All images here courtesy of the Western Front Association & Fold 3

 

 

Harold appears to have died at the start of 1922. I've just noticed that under "Other action" it was referred to the "Widows Section Regional 21 3 22". I can't see any match in the civil records for England & Wales of a marriage for Harold and so may simply have been a mistake.

 

regards,

Peter