Always in Pals Regiments?

[ss002d6252]

8 minutes ago, sc-em said:

The full grandfather's name of my dad was William James Burnett Clarey, married to a Margaret.

Born 1873 - notice the surnmae as Cleary

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=BMD%2FB%2F1873%2F3%2FAZ%2F000100%2F120

Craig

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

Your dad would have still have been known to have been alive circa 1992 when the register stopped being used by the NHS, and would have been under 100 when parts of the register were released under a Freedom of Information request c2011, so would be the prime candidate for whats hidden. Unfortunately the only way to find out is to pay a fee :-(

Good insight.

 

sc-em: Not sure that is going to be absolutely necessary the moment.

We do now have some required names to look for in the Censuses - watch this thread for developments!

:-) M

 

EDIT: As Craig has identified above = GRO Register give as CLEARY

                                                                             Name:              Mother's Maiden Name:

 

	CLEARY, WILLIAM  JAMES BURNETT	MCCONNELL
	GRO Reference: 1873  S Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK  Volume 08B  Page 528

Edited 26 June , 2020 by Matlock1418
addition of GRO entry

[PRC]

In order to narrow down the initial search I looked at births for John Clary 5 years either side of 1907 – the year of birth of his wife.

 

I then assumed he was likely to have been born in the North-West of England.

I then assumed the absence of middle names in the civil marriage record was a true reflection of the name he was registered with – and of course I had to assume that John Clarey was indeed the name he was registered.

All those assumptions are open to challenge, but for now I wanted to see where they got us.

 

I think that gives us two candidates.

1)    John Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered with the Civil Authorities in the West Derby District of Lancashire in Q4 1909.

2)    John Clarey, mothers’ maiden name Wright, birth registered with the Civil Authorities in the Bolton District in Q2 1910.

 

For 1) on the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 1 year old John Clary, born Great Crosby, Lancashire, was recorded living at 21 St Lukes Road, Great Crosby. Parents William and Charlotte have been married 17 years and have had 9 children – all then still alive.

Still single and living with them are William Fred, (14), Archie, (13), Harold Barnes, (12), Fred, (9), Frances, (7 - girl), Florence (5), Mabel Clara, (3) and of course John.

So even if the 9th child is a male, that doesn’t give you 6 brothers old enough to have fought in the Great War – but looking :-)

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 26 June , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

For 1) on the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 1 year old John Clary, born Great Crosby, Lancashire, was recorded living at 21 St Lukes Road, Great Crosby. Parents William and Charlotte have been married 17 years and have had 9 children – all then still alive.

Still single and living with them are William Fred, (14), Archie, (13), Harold Barnes, (12), Fred, (9), Frances, (7 - girl), Florence (5), Mabel Clara, (3) and of course John.

Doesn't match the grandfather as being William married to Margaret.

 

There is this family in 1901 in the West Derby district

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1901%2F0020982426

 

There's also the possibility that the 'uncles' could ultimately be from either side of the family.

 

Craig

[sc-em]

Wow! You guys are good! 

If not 6 then William, Archie and Harold could all have enlisted. Maybe even Fred who would have been 18 by the end of the war. Frances is the aunty I referred to it would seem. So the net closes on possible WW1 soldiers.

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

Doesn't match the grandfather as being William married to Margaret.

Posts have crossed with my earlier EDIT above in post #27

Maiden Name of William James Burnett Cleary's mother is McConnell - so likely we are looking for a Margaret McConnell

:-) M

[sc-em]

5 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Doesn't match the grandfather as being William married to Margaret.

 

There is this family in 1901 in the West Derby district

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1901%2F0020982426

 

There's also the possibility that the 'uncles' could ultimately be from either side of the family.

 

Craig

Good point, Harold and Archie are the elder sons of William and Charlotte according to those records, but if they had been married for 17 years by then, then it is likely there were other children who had flown the coup so as to speak, so possibly the missing brothers if they existed at all. The confectioner is interesting. My mum, who has done her family tree has always claimed that a daughter of a Clarey from Essex ( from there to Liverpool via dock work or merchant navy perhaps) worked in Middlesex. Some coincidences seem to be at play.

[sc-em]

Ignore that last one. I was screen shotting but not my usual laptop.

 

 

[ss002d6252]

2 possibles to the men in the 1901 census

Archie Clarey of 21 St Lukes Road
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266264%2F02887&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266264%2F214%2F2887

Also a Harold Barnes Carey of the same address

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266264%2F02929&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266264%2F216%2F2929

 

Father noted as William Clarey of St Lukes Road

 

Craig

[sc-em]

This image show the same info for William James, but with the correct spelling of Clarey.

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, sc-em said:

This image show the same info for William James, but with the correct spelling of Clarey.

In 1891 - the marriage found earlier for McConnell seems to be for William's father

 

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1891%2F0020506403

 

Craig

[PRC]

21 hours ago, sc-em said:

 According to my dad, my grandfather lost 6 brothers in WW1.

 

15 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Maiden Name of William James Burnett Cleary's mother is McConnell - so likely we are looking for a Margaret McConnell

 

SC-EM,

 

Before I lose the plot and we all go running off like headless chickens, can we confirm John Clarey is the grandfather and William James Burnett Cleary is possibly believed to be the great gandfather? In which case it's the brothers of John Clarey we are interested in.

 

At the moment we have family provided information that great grandfather William was married to a Margaret, whereas we have census details for a William married to a Charlotte.

 

(BTW - William married to Charlotte for 17 years on the 1911 Census of England & Wales would place the marriage circa 1894. There is indeed a marriage of a William Clarey, (no middle names) to a Charlotte McEachern recorded in the West Derby District in Q4 1894 - so not a Margaret unless that was the name she was known as in the family. Charlotte must have been elsewhere with the two older children on the 1901 census, but they were unlikely to have left home.)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[sc-em]

You may just have solved a family mystery as t how far back before we were from Ireland. So the William here is the one who then married Charlotte, who had the 9 children that we know of. Fancy my great great grandfather maybe being a constable in Ireland. 

[sc-em]

My dad is John.

His father was John (my granddad) married to Mureil Victoria.

His father William James Burnett DOB 1873, married to Charlotte of the 9 children that we know of.

His father William who then married Margaret.(DOB 1843)

 

That's right from what I have found and you guys have mostly provided.

Edited 26 June , 2020 by sc-em

[ss002d6252]

 

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

- so not a Margaret unless that was the name she was known as in the family.

 

Margaret seems to have been William J's mother rather than William J's wife (married 1873, the same year as William J was born).

Craig

[ss002d6252]

So we can see the folliwing in 1911
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F22320%2F0563%2F3

 

Archie Clarey
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266264%2F02887&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266264%2F214%2F2887

Harold Barnes Clarey

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266264%2F02929&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266264%2F216%2F2929

 

 

 

Craig

[sc-em]

That's my grand father's family then. And yes, I am Sean. Apologies. It would appear that the Essex, or at least Middlesex link is from Charlotte on the McEachern side, where as the paternal side was the William from Ireland. Am i reading that right?

 

[sc-em]

16 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

So we can see the folliwing in 1911
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F22320%2F0563%2F3

 

Archie Clarey
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266264%2F02887&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266264%2F214%2F2887

Harold Barnes Clarey

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266264%2F02929&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266264%2F216%2F2929

 

 

 

Craig

Those links are fascinating, thank Craig.

[Matlock1418]

12 minutes ago, sc-em said:

That's my grand father's family then

So, sc-em/Sean, it's your GF, John [son of William & Charlotte and the 1911 Census], that's the one with the queried 6 brothers, right?

Looks like only 4 brothers but, if so, we now state a better chance of finding any military service they may have had.

And any possible fates.

Just need to make absolutely sure we are after the right names!

:-) M

 

EDIT: B. 'ell - crossed again!!! - But no problem now we have some names off that Census!! 

Now the hunt really begins to see what we can find about possible military service and possible fates :-) M

 

Edited 26 June , 2020 by Matlock1418

[ss002d6252]

The other 'uncles' could be from your father's mother's side  (the Youngs) as there aren't enough brothers on the Cleary side.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

Just now, ss002d6252 said:

The other 'uncles' could be from your father's mother's side  (the Youngs) as there aren't enough brothers on the Cleary side.

And so now the real fun begins!

;-) M

[sc-em]

23 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

And so now the real fun begins!

;-) M

That's a good point. He is adamant they were 6 brothers but if they never spoke about it.

[Matlock1418]

Realistically, unless serious discrepancies with declared ages only the following are likely to have served

= William Fred b. 1897

= Archie b.1898

= Harold Barnes b. 1899

 

= Fred b.1902 - would have been really pushing it to have got through under-age enlistment late in the war.

 

Roughly using these first three Clarey lads' names it might just be possible to be able to find a hit(s) - just possibly

 

A quick search at TNA and ancestry comes up with [as possibles only]

= William Fred 33029 RAMC

- MIC [Discharge/SWB list] https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1803006 and https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000324-00296?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=3448940&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.co.uk%2F

 

= Archie 676464 RFA

- MIC [BWM, VM & SWB list] https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1802964 and https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000324-00254?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=3448865&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.co.uk%2F

 

= Harold 1919 / 69269

- MIC [BWM, VM & SWB list] https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1802979 and https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000324-00269?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=3448913&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.co.uk%2F

 

All Silver War Badge listed - but no CWCG deaths

 

Have not checked their ages against service dates on the MIC to see if possible fits - over to you / others

 

What you need to do is try and find other military records, such as service records [which could include NoK and addresses etc.], which might possibly show if these may be your family - I can't as don't have access to subscription Ancestry or Find My Past - over to you / others.

 

You need to establish you have correctly confirmed a family link(s) to service - others with more resources and experience than I do likely to be better than me to possibly achieve / help with that

 

If confirmed as your lot then may be able to help with Pensions = having said all that I have quickly looked at pensions and think I have found a number of these all together linked to a mother, Charlotte. ... Watch this space !!!

 

Good luck with your other searches!

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

Watch this space [and continuing} - found a 1922 death from disease that may be relevant for Harold 690269

and also includes William Fred 33029

and also Archie 676474

• Does 21 Mulgrave St, Princes Pk, Liverpool match up?
• and how about St Malo, Menlo Avenue, Irby, Cheshire? [Irby is on the Wirral]

Looking like some post-war / post-CWGC deaths for some of these lads - got to re-check a 1918 date

= Am I on the right track???

:-) M

Edited 26 June , 2020 by Matlock1418
addition of further details

[PRC]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Charlotte must have been elsewhere with the two older children on the 1901 census, but they were unlikely to have left home.

 

Apologies for taking us a step back.

 

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 24 year old married woman, Charlotte Clarey, born Bow, London, was recorded as a visitor at 42 Lyon Road, Waterloo, Lancashire. This was the household of a married woman Annie E. Rhodes, (aged 28, born Liverpool), Annies’ four children and Annie’s brother-in-law. There are no other Clarey children with her.

 

So children I can see so far are:

1)    William Fred Clarey

• William Fred Clarey, mothers maiden name “McCachen” birth registered West Derby District Q4 1896
• 1901 Census: There is a 4 year old William “Clary”, born Waterloo, Lancashire, recorded as a visitor in the household of John & Margaret Faraday. John was from Ireland & Margaret from Canada. They and their children were living at 43 Moore Street, Bootle cum Linacre, Lancashire. On the same night his father Williams’ household included a guest, Margaret Faraday, aged 16, born Seaforth. Looking at the Faraday household, all the children born between the ages of 20 and 8 are shown as born Seaforth.
• 1911 Census: William Fred Clarey, (14), born Waterloo, Lancashire.

2)    Archie Clarey.

• Archie Clarey, mothers maiden name McEachen birth registered West Derby District Q1 1898
• 1901 Census: Archie Clarey, (3), born Liverpool
• 1911 Census: Archie Clarey, (13), born Waterloo, Lancashire

3)    Harold Barnes Clarey

• Harold Barnes Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q1, 1899.
• 1901 Census: Harold B. Clarey, (2), Born Liverpool.
• 1911 Census:Harold Barnes Clarey, (12), born Waterloo, Lancashire

4)    Fred Clarey

• Fred Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q1, 1902.
• 1911 Census: Fred Clarey, (9), born Waterloo, Lancashire

5)    Frances Clarey

• Frances Clarey, mothers’ maiden name ???, birth registered West Derby District Q3, 1903.
• 1911 Census: Frances Clarey, (7), born Waterloo, Lancashire

6)    Florence Clarey

• Florence Clarey, mothers’ maiden name ???, birth registered West Derby District Q3, 1905.
• 1911 Census: Florence Clarey, (5), born Waterloo, Lancashire

7)    Mabel Clarey

• Mabel Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q4, 1909.
• 1911 Census: Mabel Clarey, (3), born Great Crosby, Lancashire

8)    John Clarey

• John Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q4, 1909.
• 1911 Census: John Clarey, (1), born Great Crosby, Lancashire.

Plus post the censuses there is

9)    Charles Clarey

• Charles Clarey, mothers’ maiden name McEachern, birth registered West Derby District Q3, 1911.

However that still leaves you one short on the children who were stated to still be alive when the census was taken on the 2nd April 1911.

 

A check of children born between 1894. (when William and Charlotte married) and 1911, in the West Derby District for the surname Clarey brings up only one additional match on FreeBMD. The birth of a Norah Talmage Clarey was recorded in Q1 1895. I couldn’t track down a match for her mothers’ maiden name. But on the 1901 Census there is a 6 year old Norah Clarey, born Liverpool, recorded living with her grandparents William Clarey, (57, living on own means, born Brightlingsea, Essex) and Charlotte A, (aged 48, born Liverpool) at Regents Road, Brightlingsea. The couple have two daughters, Mabel (24) and Emily, (17) – both born Liverpool. I couldn’t find her or the Grandparents on the 1911 Census but there is a marriage of a Norah T. Clarey recorded in the West Derby District in Q2 of 1915 to an Eric Capleton.

 

So for now the 9th child from before the 1911 Census eludes me.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 26 June , 2020 by PRC
Typo