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sc-em

Always in Pals Regiments?

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sc-em

Hi all. I have recently asked my dad to write his memoirs of growing up in Liverpool during the WW 2 and being evacuated. Something i don't know much about. However, in his first instalment he went back as far as my grandfather’s family. According to my dad, my grandfather lost 6 brothers in WW1. On looking at the CWGC site it lists 14 records with the name Clarey. One from Liverpool regiment, another from Cheshire which are possibles. I was wondering how likely it would be to have brothers all in different regiments or would they more likely be in Pals Regiments. I have inquired about any names he may recall but thought i would ask the speculative question. 
Thanks.   

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RussT

Have you looked at the family information for those 14 records? 9 have family details - do any match your family?

 

Regards

 

Russ

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PRC

And the speculative answer would be they could all be in the same unit, Pals or otherwise or none of them could have been.

 

Simplest thing is to tell us what you know about the grandfather, then stand back and let the eager beavers on the forum get to work:)

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Nigel Marshall

After the introduction of conscription, men called up for the army could be sent to any regiment, not just local ones, so it is perfectly feasible for the brothers to have served in regiments with no connection to where they came from. 
The regiment a man joined, may not have been his 'home' for the entire length of his service as well. Any man who found himself at one of the infantry base depots, after wounds or sickness may also have found himself transferred out of his original regiment, and drafted to another if that regiment needed reinforcements. The Foot Guards did well at keeping hold of their men, but all line infantry regiments seemed to have been fair game for drafting men.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

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sc-em

I am awaiting a reply for some hints at names from my dad. He has always been a bit reticent about my grandfather who died when i was young. Coincidentally he retired to the IOM which has a link with one of the names and William also seems to have been a family name. Some clearly have different parents names.  Others not identified. At 89 I am trying to get my dad to tell more what he knows of the family tree while he seems keen although he gets back to me in his time. It is equally possible it is a fabrication he was told. But 6 siblings dying?  A bit of an exaggeration to fabricate. 

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, sc-em said:

But 6 siblings dying?  A bit of an exaggeration to fabricate.

As a cautionary note:  Sibling deaths - The subject of much GWF comment over the years.

Beware - we are several generations down the line!

However ... We do await with interest any more information / leads you may be able to glean / provide.

Could be an interesting case.

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
tpyo!

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sc-em

You and me both.  It is a part of my past I know little about but if true, even if not 6, how devastating to a family. It must have been the case in so many families. Brings it home a bit. 

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david murdoch

Probably have to work back by elimination, given it's not a very common name and discounting impossible candidates. Six brothers of one family would most likely show up in the newspapers and not seeing anything related to six Clarey's. There is a possibility of a couple of brother in laws being killed (so not all Clarey).

For example.

There is a service record for James Clarey 14392 Kings Liverpool Reg. He was unmarried, but correspondence regarding his scroll/death penny was addressed to Miss B Clarey, 15 Lower Milk St, Liverpool. His NOK section notes both parents were deceased and he had one brother Thomas and one sister Bridget (living at this address). The brother signed the receipt for his medals.

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PRC
1 hour ago, sc-em said:

I have recently asked my dad to write his memoirs of growing up in Liverpool during the WW 2 and being evacuated.

 

42 minutes ago, sc-em said:

At 89 I am trying to get my dad to tell more what he knows of the family tree

 

While his record will be closed on the 1939 National Register because of his age then, those of his parents are probably not. If you know where they were living at the outbreak of WW2 then could be worth a check on FindMyPast or Ancestry - if nothing else it will give you something to judge the information you are receiving. Unfortunately family legends are quite often a version of chinese whispers - "lost to the war", (i.e. went of to serve), gets morphed into "lost in the war".

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Matlock1418
1 hour ago, sc-em said:

According to my dad, my grandfather lost 6 brothers in WW1

Would be worth knowing if your GF actually had 6 brothers [at least] - and any names of course.

If of usual service age in WW1 then 1891 and more probably 1901 and 1911 Censuses might be likely to offer some useful enlightenment with that.

The hard yards are yet to come though you seem to be having a bit of difficulty in getting properly started.So far your GF is likely to be your initial / main key so hope you can at least get / offer his name and a few personal details to help pick up the trail.

Anything else may be a bonus [or perhaps even sadly a red-herring!]

As has been said before above - you may need to work back - Your father's Birth and/or Marriage Certificate(s) may help with your GF's name if not otherways forthcoming.

But GWF are sure to want to try and help.

:-) M

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

James Clarey 14392 Kings Liverpool Reg. He was unmarried, but correspondence regarding his scroll/death penny was addressed to Miss B Clarey, 15 Lower Milk St, Liverpool

For more completeness for him, and in case of use:

Same address details on a Dependant's Pension Card - an unspecified Gratuity awarded 5-6-17 to his sister, Bridget.

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418

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clk
Posted (edited)

Hi Sean,

 

For me, with this one I'd first try to establish the family structure - i.e. who the male siblings were, and when/where they were born, and known to have lived (i.e. oral history, backed up by census returns, and BMD records). By doing that you should be able to see if there are any name matches in the CWGC database, and then cross reference to other datasets such as Soldiers' Effects; Soldiers Died; and dependents pension index cards (on Fold3), together with any surviving service papers, . That would hopefully allow you to add to the details from the CWGC 'hits' especially where there aren't already some shown, to determine if they are likely to have been your great uncles.

 

As a mute point, there weren't 'Pals Regiments' as such, just 'Pals Battalions' - usually used to refer to newly created units in the context of 'local' men that were recruited shortly after the outbreak of the war - link.

 

Regards

Chris 

Edited by clk

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Wexflyer
8 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Sean,

 

For me, with this one I'd first try to establish the family structure - i.e. who the male siblings were, and when/where they were born, and known to have lived (i.e. oral history, backed up by census returns, and BMD records). By doing that you should be able to see if there are any name matches in the CWGC database, and then cross reference to other datasets such as Soldiers' Effects; Soldiers Died; and dependents pension index cards (on Fold3), together with any surviving service papers, . T

 

This! Starting by looking for soldiers is precisely the wrong thing to do.  The place to start is with the family itself. How many brothers were there?

Were there variations in surname spelling between records?

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sc-em

Thank you for the very helpful comments and suggestions and i take you point about soldiers not being the best route into a family tree.  It had not been my intent, but as my dad had very specifically mentioned the 6 brothers ( or not as the case my be) in his first memoirs instalment, which i thought would be his war years, i thought i would at least endeavour to find something before i actually get names back off him.  I will certainly be ringing him over the weekend if i don't hear sooner. 
To be........

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sc-em

Well I have spoken to my dad, who either can't remember, or never knew the names of his uncles. He states that they were never rarely discussed (quite possible given the circumstances) and as his mother and father were a nurse and RAF man respectively, then he was moved from pillar to post, but with some of his aunties looking after him. He does remember his grandmother (dad's side) living on Princess Drive and his own father, a John (always known as Jack), and mother Muriel Victoria lived at Ridgetor road, Liverpool when he was young (moved in 1931 from Penny Lane of all places), so pre and through the war.

As suggested above, i think it will be a case of working backwards from there, although as mentioned some of the names do resonate. At 89 I don't want to push him, but he has certainly set a ball in motion.

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ss002d6252
27 minutes ago, sc-em said:

Well I have spoken to my dad, who either can't remember, or never knew the names of his uncles. He states that they were never rarely discussed (quite possible given the circumstances) and as his mother and father were a nurse and RAF man respectively, then he was moved from pillar to post, but with some of his aunties looking after him. He does remember his grandmother (dad's side) living on Princess Drive and his own father, a John (always known as Jack), and mother Muriel Victoria lived at Ridgetor road, Liverpool when he was young (moved in 1931 from Penny Lane of all places), so pre and through the war.

As suggested above, i think it will be a case of working backwards from there, although as mentioned some of the names do resonate. At 89 I don't want to push him, but he has certainly set a ball in motion.

 

Does he remember his grandparents (father's parents) names ?

 

Craig

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sc-em
Posted (edited)

He's a bit hopeless but he is sending me an email with any names he can remember. I have found my grandmother and grandfather after a very quick ancestry search but i need the census really for 1931 which of course isn't available as it was lost in a blaze and would not be available anyway for a few years.

 

Checked back through an aunty Frances of my dad. Her father was a William and his wife was a Charlotte McEachern (may have different spellings). Lived on Walton on the Hill, Lancs

Edited by sc-em

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PRC

On the 1939 National Register, the only Clarey households at Ridgetor road, Liverpool are:

No.28

No.1 occupant Muriel V.J. Clarey a married woman born 28th April 1907, carrying out unpaid domestic duties.

No.2 occupant – record officially closed.

No.3 occupant William F. Clarey, born 29th April 1938, under school age.

 

Going back to the civil birth records, the birth of a William F. Clarey, mothers’ maiden name Young was registered with the civil authorities in the Liverpool South District in Q2 1938.

That’s the only child I can see of that marriage.

 

The marriage of a John Clarey to a Muriel V J Young was recorded in the Wirral District of Cheshire in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1931.

 

If John was serving in WW2 then he may have already been mobilised and in barracks by the time the Register was taken on the 29th September 1939, so would not have been included.

 

Otherwise I couldn’t readily see a candidate for John.

 

Will put me thinking cap on,

Peter

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ss002d6252
1 minute ago, PRC said:

On the 1939 National Register, the only Clarey households at Ridgetor road, Liverpool are:

No.28

No.1 occupant Muriel V.J. Clarey a married woman born 28th April 1907, carrying out unpaid domestic duties.

No.2 occupant – record officially closed.

No.3 occupant William F. Clarey, born 29th April 1938, under school age.

 

Going back to the civil birth records, the birth of a William F. Clarey, mothers’ maiden name Young was registered with the civil authorities in the Liverpool South District in Q2 1938.

That’s the only child I can see of that marriage.

 

The marriage of a John Clarey to a Muriel V J Young was recorded in the Wirral District of Cheshire in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1931.

 

If John was serving in WW2 then he may have already been mobilised and in barracks by the time the Register was taken on the 29th September 1939, so would not have been included.

 

Otherwise I couldn’t readily see a candidate for John.

 

Will put me thinking cap on,

Peter


I came up with exactly the same Peter.

Craig

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Matlock1418
6 minutes ago, PRC said:

The marriage of a John Clarey to a Muriel V J Young was recorded in the Wirral District of Cheshire in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1931.

Might that not fit in with the OP saying his father was 89

And also the "officially closed" entry on the 1939 register - if his father is not William

28 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Does he remember his grandparents (father's parents) names ?

That would be a real help and probably take use back into the 1911 and 1901 Censuses which is where we probably need to be to see if there were any extra brothers

:-) M

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sc-em

28 Ridgetor road is the address my dad gave. William Frederick was my uncle and dad's younger brother. That's interesting my dad is not registered. It is around there that my dad described on my street view tour with him. Could my dad be the 'record unofficially closed'? How mysterious? Or could he have been away at the aunts he tell me he was often left with as being the older brother of 8 at the time of that register? Intriguing! The full grandfather's name of my dad was William James Burnett Clarey, married to a Margaret. . Those are the ones that allegedly had the 6 sons etc.

Yes my dad is 89.

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

It is indeed. Thanks Craig.

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ss002d6252
Just now, sc-em said:

28 Ridgetor road is the address my dad gave. William Frederick was my uncle and dad's younger brother. That's interesting my dad is not registered. It is around there that my dad described on my street view tour with him. Could my dad be the 'record unofficially closed'? How mysterious? Or could he have been away at the aunts he tell me he was often left with as being the older brother of 8 at the time of that register? Intriguing! The full grandfather's name of my dad was William James Burnett Clarey, married to a Margaret. . Those are the ones that allegedly had the 6 sons etc.

He's likely the closed record - in most cases it's people who were children at the time and they've been closed until death or age 100 is reached.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/blog/family-records/redaction-and-the-1939-register

Craig

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, sc-em said:

That's interesting my dad is not registered. It is around there that my dad described on my street view tour with him. Could my dad be the 'record unofficially closed'?

Might that not be because he was/is of an age where still considered closed due to possibility of being still alive - as you would be able to confirm !

Others will probably know more about the 1939 register than I do.

We do need to find his grandparents.

:-) M

 

EDIT Craig has given the same explanation.

Further EDIT - Sorry missed that bit = You have given teh required names - "the full grandfather's name of my dad was William James Burnett Clarey, married to a Margaret. . Those are the ones that allegedly had the 6 sons etc."

 

Edited by Matlock1418
Crossed posts and missed point

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PRC

 

1 minute ago, sc-em said:

Could my dad be the 'record unofficially closed'? How mysterious?

 Your dad would have still have been known to have been alive circa 1992 when the register stopped being used by the NHS, and would have been under 100 when parts of the register were released under a Freedom of Information request c2011, so would be the prime candidate for whats hidden. Unfortunately the only way to find out is to pay a fee :-(

 

Cheers,

Peter

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