Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 Does anybody have an illustration of 11 Squadron's twin eagles badge with the King's crown ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 1 hour ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: Does anybody have an illustration of 11 Squadron's twin eagles badge with the King's crown ? Tom Hi Care of Player's 'RAF Badges' set of 1937. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 25 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2020 3 hours ago, MikeMeech said: Hi Care of Player's 'RAF Badges' set of 1937. Mike Uhm - thanks - interesting. I'd seen reference to the King having approved the two eagles badge because of the squadron's WW1 service as a fighter squadron. I had seen this Players card but it shows "Bomber". I do know that during the later days of WW1 No 11 Squadron were night bombers - but its their earlier fighter days I was looking to link to. any more ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffnut453 Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 11 Sqn was not a bomber squadron at any time during WW1. It operated FE2s and then Bristol Fighters until disbandment in 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 7 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: Uhm - thanks - interesting. I'd seen reference to the King having approved the two eagles badge because of the squadron's WW1 service as a fighter squadron. I had seen this Players card but it shows "Bomber". I do know that during the later days of WW1 No 11 Squadron were night bombers - but its their earlier fighter days I was looking to link to. any more ? Tom Hi The squadron disbanded in December 1919 and was reformed in January 1923 with DH.9As and became a 'bomber' squadron, with various types, during the inter-war. When the badge was issued No. 11 during the inter-war period it was a bomber squadron. This does not mean the badge did not refer back to its fighter origins in WW1. Other squadrons also chose to indicate their WW1 service, for example No. 18 Sqn. had the winged horse 'Pegasus' which harked back to their role in September 1916 as the Cavalry Corps support squadron (on FE.2Bs) although they became a bomber squadron on DH4s in 1917. No.19 Sqn. had a Dolphin on their badge that looked back to their use of the Sopwith Dolphin from November 1917 to the end of WW1. No. 12 Sqn. ignored WW1 and had a Fox Head on their badge that indicated that they were the only squadron to use the Fairey Fox from 1926-1931. Many squadrons had badges that illustrated inter-war service of some kind and we should remember that the badges were 'issued' during the inter-war period (WW2 resulted in a large number of squadron badges being designed for squadrons that did not exist before). The squadron badge in this form did not exist during WW1 as far as I am aware. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffnut453 Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 (edited) MikeMeech is right. Designing and approving Squadron heraldry is an involved process since the badge is officially approved by the reigning monarch. Certain criteria have to be met, including the unit having been in existence for a certain period of time, and to have performed loyal service. Any badge used during WW1 would have been entirely unofficial and would not have had the King's crown. Edited 26 June , 2020 by Buffnut453 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 26 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2020 12 hours ago, Buffnut453 said: ... Any badge used during WW1 would have been entirely unofficial and would not have had the King's crown. Can I change the question a bit then - does anybody know of any "unofficial" badge or sign or marking used by 11 Squadron during WW1 ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 1 hour ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: Can I change the question a bit then - does anybody know of any "unofficial" badge or sign or marking used by 11 Squadron during WW1 ? Tom Hi Do you mean on the aircraft? If so Bristol Fighters from June 1917 to March 1918 had the markings below (white on dark background) from Thetford's 'Camouflage '14-18 Aircraft': Les Rogers in 'British Aviation Squadron Markings of World War 1' mentions that F2bs may have used some 'unofficial' markings previously stating that: "... one aircraft had two vertical red bars with blue outlines. Another had a broad red bar with blue outlines." Previous squadron aircraft such as the FE.2b (on nose) and Nieuport 11 may have used hollow white triangles, although these were also 'unofficial'. I am not sure if that is what you actually want though? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 27 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2020 "Do you mean on the aircraft?" Yes. I've seen photos and illustrations of FE2bs' with various nose markings, but I wondered if the squadron may have had a "squadron sign" on their aircraft - as of late 1916 that is. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 11 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: "Do you mean on the aircraft?" Yes. I've seen photos and illustrations of FE2bs' with various nose markings, but I wondered if the squadron may have had a "squadron sign" on their aircraft - as of late 1916 that is. Tom Hi All sources I have seen do not have an 'official' squadron marking mentioned. As Les Rogers and others have mentioned in publications the 'white hollow triangle' being used 'unofficially' and maybe not on all aircraft. Example below from p.119 of Cross & Cockade's FE2b/d monograph (also found in other publications): The first 'official' squadron markings were issued on 23 March, 1916 in CRFC 1693 (G) (UKTNA AIR 1/867/204/5/523), this was only for BE.2c aircraft. Other aircraft were included in an update on 26 August, 1917. here the same markings were used by different squadrons but using different aircraft types. On 22 March, 1918 Corps squadrons and some others had all squadron markings removed and single-seat fighter squadrons had their ones changed. Aircraft can also be seen with 'temporary' markings that were used in ground support operations from, at least, May 1916 'Provisional Instructions regarding Liaison between Infantry and Aircraft' (AIR 1/2251/209/54/13), also my article in 'Cross & Cockade Journal' of Summer 2016 ('Markings worn by RFC/RAF Contact Patrol and Associated Mission Aeroplanes'). From the evidence we have I don't believe there were any 'Squadron Badges' until they started to appear during the inter-war period. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 28 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2020 10 hours ago, MikeMeech said: From the evidence we have I don't believe there were any 'Squadron Badges' until they started to appear during the inter-war period. Thanks for that. I've seen photos / illustrations of Fe2bs with variations of white markings around the nose area. Any idea what the purpose of those markings might have been ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 29 June , 2020 Share Posted 29 June , 2020 17 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: Thanks for that. I've seen photos / illustrations of Fe2bs with variations of white markings around the nose area. Any idea what the purpose of those markings might have been ? Tom Hi As I have mentioned some authors believe the 'Hollow Triangle' (with a bar extending from its base) might have been an unofficial squadron marking. However, there is also a photo of a No. 11 Sqn. aircraft '4954', that came down on the German side of the line after becoming lost during a storm on 1.4.17, appears in a photo (Cross & Cockade Monograph, p. 125) with only a white bar on the nose of the nacelle. This is all 'unconfirmed' guesswork until some more evidence turns up. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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