Appreciate Help Decifering Grandfathers Medal Card

[Jan Lodge]

Spoiler

 

 

 

Hoping you can help with the above record.  I have found this for my grandfather in both Ancestry and UK Archives but very little else.  By a lot of reading I understand he was a Battery Quarter Master Serjeant 4th Brigade in the RFA commissioned through to Major.  I think he entered the army in India 1900 and was in the Royal Horse though cannot find records. Medals received 1914 Star British and Victory Roses&Clasp  and Indian Services Medal. Can anyone tell me if the 4 in front of the record means 4 campaigns and what they may have been. I found 3 Gazette notifications for his commissions 1914-20. We are trying to find what Battery he served in and where.  I cannot find him in officers list 4th Brigade Diaries located.  Very very new to this. Thankyou 

Edited 25 June , 2020 by Jan Lodge
Hope I have added the file correctly so you may see. Thankyou

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I'm afraid that  I can't see the 4 you refer to, as the image isn't very clear ( at least to my old eyes) have you had a read of how to interpret a medal index card on the Long Long Trail website? 

Michelle 

[TEW]

It's a very busy card with lots of detail. It would be much better for you to download it from ancestry and add it here, the screenshot is not helping your quest.

 

I also can't see a '4 campaigns No. 4' only the 4th Bde one.

 

Don't know that much on Artillery men but he also has a Indian GS medal for Afghanistan 1919. Also seems he was issued a 14-15 star as well as a 14 star! This was noticed and corrected.

 

There are lots of details that can be extracted with a better image.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

JL - Welcome to GWF.

Re: the queried "4"

Note: There are several # which link various annotations.

However ... I think you might [?] be looking near the "1-38 Bty" in the lower Corps box -  I think the cross of the t of Bty has got an adjacent " [ditto] superimposed - the ditto suggesting several ranks at 1-38 Bty = Lieut. Capt and Major

:-) M

 

P.S. The name and number was Walter Albert MONAGHAN, 937 if you struggled with the original image  - Much better when viewed at Ancestry! - But fair play to the new OP for posting the image in the first place. :-) :-)

Edited 25 June , 2020 by Matlock1418

[ss002d6252]

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A001099-01239?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=547590cd3409c15d0b0f5f04346de6c6&usePUB=true&_phsrc=syT76&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1254763&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fsse.dll%3F_phsrc%3DsyT76%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1262%26gsfn%3DW%20A%26gsln%3Dmonaghan%26cp%3D0%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3D784%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D1254763%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1%26queryId%3D547590cd3409c15d0b0f5f04346de6c6

 

1914 Star + Clasp. IGS medal and Afghan clasp. BWM and VM.

 

 

38 Battery was apparently part of 7 Brigade in India
https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Royal_Artillery

 

Craig

[kenf48]

As noted it is a very 'busy' card but most of it seems to be over his entitlement to the 14-15 Star. The reverse of the card shows the CO in Peshawar submitted a list of thoise entitled to medals in January 1920 and it seems that's where it started to go wrong!

 

He was awarded the 14 Star as BQMS 97 RFA.

The asterisk is a reference mark and denoted the rank to be shown on the medal, i.e. substantive rank of 'Captain'

 

I imagine he returned the 1914 Star (taken on charge) in August 1920 for some amendment (a note on the reverse of the card states 'Commissioned')

In any event the Star was returned against an Issue Voucher (IV) on 20th September 1920.

It looks like he applied for the Clasp and Roses in 1937

In essence the long text is simply:-  IV/then a date(of issue)/an admin reference

 

The hash reference mark against the IGS refers to the battery in which he served and  address where it was sent (in 1925) as shown on the back of the card.

 

His Commission was promulgated in the London Gazette 8th March 1916 to date from the 13th February.

 

As he served beyond 1920 it's possible his records are at the MOD

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jan Lodge]

12 hours ago, kenf48 said:

As noted it is a very 'busy' card but most of it seems to be over his entitlement to the 14-15 Star. The reverse of the card shows the CO in Peshawar submitted a list of thoise entitled to medals in January 1920 and it seems that's where it started to go wrong!

 

He was awarded the 14 Star as BQMS 97 RFA.

The asterisk is a reference mark and denoted the rank to be shown on the medal, i.e. substantive rank of 'Captain'

 

I imagine he returned the 1914 Star (taken on charge) in August 1920 for some amendment (a note on the reverse of the card states 'Commissioned')

In any event the Star was returned against an Issue Voucher (IV) on 20th September 1920.

It looks like he applied for the Clasp and Roses in 1937

In essence the long text is simply:-  IV/then a date(of issue)/an admin reference

 

The hash reference mark against the IGS refers to the battery in which he served and  address where it was sent (in 1925) as shown on the back of the card.

 

His Commission was promulgated in the London Gazette 8th March 1916 to date from the 13th February.

 

As he served beyond 1920 it's possible his records are at the MOD

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

 

Thankyou so much for your information.  Even though I had investigated how to read these cards I found it very very confusing.  Only wished I had come on here sooner.  

Can you tell me what the HEF stands for on the back of the card.  Is it just a record notation of the issue of above.      

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jan Lodge]

Very grateful for your help. I did re attach a larger copy.  Didn't matter how much investigating I did I could not come up with all that.   I hope I can find further information on his lengthy service of I believe 29 years.  I remember my mother telling me he had been badly injured and I thought she said France as they transported her mother to see him as he wasn't expected to live. Can anyone tell me is it likely he would be in hospital France if he served in India with Battery 38 with 7 Brigade.  Information on 7 Brigade says it was in India for the entire time.  Thankyou again.

 

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Jan Lodge said:

Can anyone tell me is it likely he would be in hospital France if he served in India with Battery 38 with 7 Brigade. 

 

He was awarded the IGSM while serving with 38 Battery, 7 Brigade, by this time he had been commissioned.

 

His 'war medal' entitlement, including the 1914 Star for which he qualified by entering France on the 14th October 1914 was with 4th Brigade which was in the 7th (Meerut) Division, Indian Army. 

He would not have been awarded this medal together with the clasp and roses for service in any other theatre of war. (I think that is likely why there was some original confusion on the card as the dates of the award were specific i.e. 4th August - 22 November).

 

The Division landed at Marseilles from India between 12 -14 October. They participated in a number of battles on the Western Front, but suffered greatly during the European winter.

It is entirely possible his mother crossed to France to see him in hospital if he was dangerously ill as a result of his wounds.  The Division left France in October 1915.

 

I'm guessing he transferred to 7 Brigade after he was commissioned. 7 Brigade remained in India and was part of the 2nd (Rawalpindi) Division, Indian Army.  Once again, speculative but if he was that badly wounded he may not have been fit enough for further front line duty we don't know if he accompanied the Division to Mesopatamia but it seems unlikely.

 

 

[David Porter]

Welcome to the Forum Jan,

 

There appear to be at least two episodes of service here. His rank service with 4th Brigade RFA (7 Bty, 14 Bty and 66 Bty) which fought in France then Mesopotamia and his commisioned service with 38/7 in India. In between he would probably be on an officers course somewhere. His service record has survived and is still with the MOD under a new file number of P/114458. This will give most of the information you seek, including a possible wounding in France.

 

I'm speculating that the commission was before 4th Brigade RFA moved from Mesopotamia to Egypt in 1918 as this seems more logical, but I could be wrong.

[ss002d6252]

It was pre Jan 1918

London gazette of 10 Jan 1918

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

It was 13 Feb 1916

 

LG of  March 1916

 

Craig

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, Jan Lodge said:

Can you tell me what the HEF stands for on the back of the card.  Is it just a record notation of the issue of above. 

 

I've no idea, 'E.F.' was the usual abbreviation for 'Expeditionary Force' but I'm not sure that applies here.  The cards were an administrative tool in the Medals Office to assist with the issue and distribution of medals. The final date on that line is two days before the Star was reissued.

 

As David has identified his service record rather than trying to piece it together from the card looks like you're going to have to invest £30 for the full story. 

 

In the meantime you may wish to download the war diary from TNA, free at the moment if you register

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7356103

 

Ah I see you already have the diary and details from the LG

 

 

[TEW]

I think the HEF is actually #EF, part of the EF/9 reference which in this case refers to the #Shanklin Ave. address.

 

There is also a Casualty List for him. Daily list 6/8/17 RFA Captain WA Monaghan.

 

Then probably the same man with an MH106 Millbank hospital admission in 1917 under Capt. W Monaghan RFA.

 

I can only see the index for the latter.

TEW

 

 

[Jan Lodge]

Thanks again all for time and trying to piece his service together for me.  I guess there is no other way of getting a copy of his service record P/114458 and thankyou for advising there is one.  Im in Australia and all I can see is a manual application requiring a british pound cheque. I don't have a real grievance about the money but it is so slow.

[David Porter]

He is listed in the Leicester Daily Post of March 12, 1915 as an arrival at 5th Northern General Hospital, Leicester (under those reported Sick)

 

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

It was 13 Feb 1916

 

That is earlier than I thought and coincides with the 4th Brigade's arrival at Basra. He may well have been commissioned in France or England.

EDIT: According to the Army List of March 1916 he had served 16 years, 206 days in the ranks.

 

44 minutes ago, TEW said:

MH106 Millbank hospital admission in 1917 under Capt. W Monaghan RFA

 

Seems to be the right person, aged 35, 19 years 6 months service, 27 months with Field Force.

Admitted July 26, 1917 with Burns, Discharged to Duty October 3, 1917

Date of Birth given in MOD retained list is October 19, 1882

His low service number puts him enlisting in late 1899.

Edited 26 June , 2020 by David Porter
Army List information

[Jan Lodge]

Yes thats him he was born 19.10.1882 and I was advised he joined the  army at age 16 or 17. Its like a jigsaw where everyone but me is finding the pieces.

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Jan Lodge said:

Im in Australia and all I can see is a manual application requiring a british pound cheque. I don't have a real grievance about the money but it is so slow.

 

There is a facility on the link I posted for payment by bankers draft, money order if overseas.  I know it's annoying when Australian records are so freely available and the decision, of course is yours.  I've had no occasion to use the service but feedback on here is the staff are helpful, but you're right the process is slow.

 

Then again I've been here eleven years and still finding out things relating to my original post and still learning.