British flag help

[Thatww1pigeon]

Here I have a Union Jack flag. Unfortunately I’m not sure if it’s from the war. Could anyone give me any insight into this? In the photos the letters faintly spell out Union Jack and the number 1 on the left of it. Sorry, not much to work off of. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MerchantOldSalt]

I think what it actually says is "1 1/2".  There was a time when flags were measured in Yards, 1 1/2 yards should make your flag 4 1/2 feet long from hoist to fly.  This is very much a standard flag size, they could go from 1 Yard up to 3 or even 4 yards.

There was a way of folding the flag and securing it with its tack line, not on yours, so that the size and name were visible in the compartment of a ship's flag locker without having to unroll the flag. I'm not suggesting yours is a ship's flag, but if it were, it would only ever have been worn by a British warship.

Your flag is old, but how old it is probably not possible to say, not been used very much, and where it might have been used is also impossible to say. The thread looks like cotton so before man made fibres for sure. Nicely made though.

Tony

 

 

[Ron Clifton]

Unless it was made specifically for flying from the jackstaff, I think that the wording "Union Jack" rules out a Royal Navy connection. They are very sniffy about calling it the "Union Flag".

 

Ron

[Grovetown]

In a strange way, at least it's not dated.

 

eBay is awash with old flags - Union, RAF, Turkish etc etc - of late which, although of some age, have been embellished with spurious dates.

 

Much easier to accept this as a contemporary item (albeit one that could be WW2 too) than one that's been mucked about with by a faker.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[Thatww1pigeon]

Interesting. I had a feeling the number might have been a date, but the length of it sounds right. My dad found it at a garage sale a few weeks ago.

[KizmeRD]

Definitely not RN as it lacks a sewn in tack line and there are no Inglefield clips to attach it to a halyard.  
Also can’t see there is any Government arrow mark, so has probably been manufactured for civilian market.
1.5 yards would equate to a RN size 3 flag (smallest size in us for a Union Flag).

[Alan24]

On 22/06/2020 at 08:40, Ron Clifton said:

Unless it was made specifically for flying from the jackstaff, I think that the wording "Union Jack" rules out a Royal Navy connection. They are very sniffy about calling it the "Union Flag".

 

Ron

As I understand it, the Union Flag flown at sea should have the aspect ration of 1:2, those flown on land a ratio of 3:5, as in the photo in the op.

So definitely a 'land' flag.  

A good reference source is HERE

[MerchantOldSalt]

2 hours ago, Alan24 said:

As I understand it, the Union Flag flown at sea should have the aspect ration of 1:2, those flown on land a ratio of 3:5, as in the photo in the op.

So definitely a 'land' flag.  

A good reference source is HERE

For some of the reasons stated I believe that the OP's flag is unlikely to be a flag used at sea however I have always understood that The Union Flag when worn by ships of the Royal Navy in accordance with the Order in Council of 1864 (whether as a jack, at the mizzen masthead when the Sovereign is embarked, or at the main masthead when the Admiral of the fleet is embarked or to indicate a court martial is taking place onboard) has the same dimensions as the flag flown on land that is a ratio of 3:5.  Only when the Union Flag appears in the top quadrant next to the hoist of an Ensign be it Red, White or Blue does the ratio change to 1:2 so that it takes up one quarter of the ensign which is also that ratio.  There were, and are, other flags in which the Union Flag has the same proportion as the flag in which it is included. The Public Service jack flown during WW1 by ships under Government contract,  for example,  had the proportion of 1:1, the Royal Fleet Auxiliary jack, which superseded that institutions flying of the Admiralty Blue Ensign and jack, also has the proportions of 1:1 to this day. 

Tony

[Thatww1pigeon]

Good to know about the proportions. When was the 1 1/2 flags phased out? Or have they continued to use varied proportions over time?

[KizmeRD]

16 hours ago, Thatww1pigeon said:

Good to know about the proportions. When was the 1 1/2 flags phased out? Or have they continued to use varied proportions over time?

Not sure exactly what you mean by the question, but if you are asking specifically about flag ceremonial in the Royal Navy, and by ‘flags’ you are referring to ships colours (Ensigns and Jacks), then the standard sizes in use by HM ships range from size 3 (one and a half yards by one yard) to size 12 (six yards by four). What size actually gets used depends on the class of vessel that’s flying it (the larger the ship, the larger the size), and the Jack is always a smaller size than that of the Ensign. Also one size larger than normal is used on Sundays (in harbour) and on dress ship days. Same today as it was in WW1.

Michael

[Alan24]

Here's a selection of flag sizes available online made to MoD specifications.

Quite a few at 1:2 ratio. Others at 3:2 and one at 3:5.

[KizmeRD]

Further to my previous posting, I stand corrected (memory fades with age and I should have double-checked) - having now consulted my book of reference, the standard RN sizes are all in fact 2 to 1 ratio, therefore a size 3 flag is one and a half yards by three-quarters etc.
Also the sizes do in fact go on up to a whooping size 20.

Michael

 

Edited 24 June , 2020 by KizmeRD

[Thatww1pigeon]

Sorry Michael. My question was more directed to land flags and their proportions, my bad. Nonetheless good to know sizes of flags at sea for future reference.