Rare for a British Soldier to Receive a Foreign Medal?

[sr97]

Hi all, I have previously sought information on my family members who fought in the East Surrey Regiment and who both died on the same day here on the forum. One of these brothers, Herbert William Hunt, received the French Medaille Militaire medal. I am wondering if it was rare for a British Soldier to receive a medal from a foreign country, was it a common occurrence and was there any communication between the two countries to organise it. I have discovered a news paper article which discusses the medal in great detail, so I presume it was of importance.

 

As always, any information is welcome, thank you in advance.

 

Stephen.

[Steven Broomfield]

Not massively rare. I suspect that every so often a batch of foreign gongs were handed out, with individual units or formations being allocated a certain number. I suspect that chaps who deserved something, but who didn't get a British award, were given them.

 

My suspicion would also be that a medal such as the French award you mention had a little more credibility than, say, the Ruritanian Order of the Exalted Falcon (3rd Class)

[bif]

40 minutes ago, sr97 said:

Stephen

Go to the topic MEDALS.  Currently two ongoing threads re this subject by some very experienced and knowledgable "PALS".

19 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Ruritanian

Mr B, that award have to be signed off by Anthony Hope ?

[sr97]

4 minutes ago, bif said:

MEDALS

Much appreciated will give it a read now.

 

28 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

individual units or formations being allocated a certain number. I suspect that chaps who deserved something, but who didn't get a British award, were given them.

I know that he was the only one in the first battalion to receive it, even over his own brother. Thankful for that article all the same. 

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, sr97 said:

I am wondering if it was rare for a British Soldier to receive a medal from a foreign country, was it a common occurrence and was there any communication between the two countries to organise it. I have discovered a news paper article which discusses the medal in great detail, so I presume it was of importance.

 

As always, any information is welcome, thank you in advance.

 

Stephen.

Hello Stephen,

There was a reciprocal arrangement in place, whereby amounts of gallantry medals were given to fellow Allied nations. The process for recommending a soldier for a British gallantry award could be a bureaucratic process, as I understand it. Even then, a reward could be rejected if there was a glut of requests, yet the quota of medals was small.

I have read that awarding a foreign gallantry medal to a soldier, from the existing pool of medals, meant there was less red tape with the War Office, and a deserving case could get that award, without the risk of rejection.

That said, though, the Royal Navy went through a stringent process to provide documented instances of gallantry at the Battle of Jutland with Russian Awards. Two years later, the awards were made. In the intervening period Tsar Nicholas was no longer the ruler.

When the award took place, the name of the recipient and their unit was recorded on a list. That information was provided back to the nation that had donated the medal. The bravery citation was not provided. Just like the Military Medal of the War Office, if you are lucky the citation is reported in a local newspaper, to raise morale by telling the story of "local boy done good". If there is no newspaper article, and no mention in the battalion war diary, then the reasons for the award will have gone to the grave, along with that man.

So, in answer to your question

Quote

was there any communication between the two countries to organise it.

The recipient nation (GB in this instance) would record a list of who they gave the medals to. They would pass this to the donor nation (Republique Française in this instance) who would record this somewhere. The names of military personnel given Allied gallantry medals are recorded in the War Office files in the WO 388/7 series. There are six files of men who received French gallantry decorations.

In the inverse sense, there are two files of French military personnel in receipt of British gallantry medals within the WO 388/6 series.

 

Quote

 I am wondering if it was rare for a British Soldier to receive a medal from a foreign country, was it a common occurrence

I would be of the opinion that it was not rare for a soldier of the military forces of King George V to receive a foreign gallantry medal. Whether it was "common" or not is perhaps a philosophical question. Some statistics with regard to the amount of persons serving in HM Forces of Britain & Empire + Dominions would be useful. Supporting figures with regard to the quantity of Military Medals, Distinguished Conduct Medals & Meritorious Service Medals issued for service in WW1 to personnel of HM Forces of Britain & Empire + Dominions would be of interest. Thereafter, a breakdown of the number of foreign gallantry medals issued to HM Forces of Britain & Empire + Dominions would be pertinent to the question. 

There are a number of subcategories of the forum, below is a link to a filter which shows only those posts within the "medals" subforum. I hope this is of interest.
https://www.greatwarforum.org/?forumId=154


Thanks
Keith

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Our Light Horse in Egypt/Palestine were not subject to a lot of British awards (most going to the Infantry who did a lot of the heavy work) so Allied awards became more common.

 

Awards from France, Rumania, Serbia, Italy and Egypt were given out to Aussie Light Horse soldiers at all levels.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[Keith_history_buff]

I presume that the man in question is Sergeant William Henry Hunt, who died on 9 September 1914.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/879178/HUNT, HERBERT WILLIAM

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Stephen,

I have a somewhat different Impression.

To get ANY sort of Decoration or Mention was outstanding. The great majority - even of the so-called Frontline Units - got absolutely nothing in that respect.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[sadbrewer]

48 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I presume that the man in question is Sergeant William Henry Hunt, who died on 9 September 1914.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/879178/HUNT, HERBERT WILLIAM

If it is Sgt Hunt, he was one of approximately 200 servicemen who received the award in the same announcement.

 

Edited 20 June , 2020 by sadbrewer

[mancpal]

Thought Foreign Gong might have broken cover by now, think this may be up his street

 

Simon

[ForeignGong]

Hi

 He was awarded the Medaille Militaire under Army Order No 466 of 1914 it lists 198 which were not gazetted.

There were approx 1592 gazetted.

My database has approx 54,000 gazetted foreign awards up to 1925. When you consider the British MM was over 115,000 and DCM 24,500, then foreign awards are uncommon.

 

Peter

 

Simon give me a chance please mate, I live in Aussie and have just woken, had breakfast and turned on the PC after a hard Saturday night.

Edited 21 June , 2020 by ForeignGong

[mancpal]

Even by GWF standards that was quick.

 

Simon

[sr97]

13 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Thanks
Keith

Keith, thanks so much for that information. Yes that's the man in question, I've had to piece together all of the brothers story by myself so always helpful to receive more knowledge regarding them.

 

Thanks for the article sadbrewer, will add it to the family tree

 

[Steven Broomfield]

15 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All, and Stephen,

I have a somewhat different Impression.

To get ANY sort of Decoration or Mention was outstanding. The great majority - even of the so-called Frontline Units - got absolutely nothing in that respect.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

As I said '... deserved something, but didn't get a British award ...;

[sr97]

3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

As I said '... deserved something, but didn't get a British award ...;

 

Wonder if it would be seen as any less of an achievement to be awarded a foreign medal over one awarded by their own country? 

[Keith_history_buff]

I came across the following, in relation to a Medaille Militaire recipient, Albert Ernest Ganner. I thought this gave context.

 

  

On 18/09/2019 at 00:00, kenf48 said:

There is a note on his record under the heading Medals Clasps &c -  date received 17.1.1916 chronologically the Medaille Militaire is shown as his first award, so if the entries were made in sequence, yes for service in Gallipoli.  The award predates his LS&GC medal in 1918 and the subsequent award of the ‘war medals’.

 

Unlike British awards which in the Army passed up the chain of command, foreign awards came down the chain and were often awarded where a British award had not been approved.  It probably was awarded along with, or for the actions meriting the certificate mentioned above.  There are few citations for foreign awards, as suggested by Horatio above, ‘for distinguished service’ is probably the best you will get.  Although there were retrospective awards of the British Military Medal this was not instituted until 1916.  He may, for example, have been recommended for a DCM in 1915, but in spite of his obvious bravery not every recommendation was successful but was recognised by his C.O. when the opportunity arose.

 

Ken

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

The following man was also on that list.

  

On 25/04/2003 at 06:25, Guest SueN said:

Sapper Arthur Charles NANKIVELL, 56th Company, Royal Engineers. Received French Medaille Militaire on 18/7/1915 for an event that appeared to occur on 19/11/1914.

 

The list has been posted, and it's interesting that about 20% are being mentioned as posthumous awards.

 

[sr97]

5 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

The list has been posted, and it's interesting that about 20% are being mentioned as posthumous awards

 

 

I see Herbert's name under the posthumous awards, it was sent to his mother as far as I know. A newspaper clipping mentions that both Herbert and his brother received English Distinguished Conduct medals due to their mention in Sir John French's dispatches so it seems he was awarded medals from both countries. 

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

22 hours ago, sr97 said:

 I have discovered a news paper article which discusses the medal in great detail

Is the aforementioned article in your post above?

[sr97]

Yes that's the one, the Surrey in the Great War website has three newspaper articles and clippings regarding the brothers: https://www.surreyinthegreatwar.org.uk/story/herbert-and-richard-hunt-of-chertsey/#:~:text=Herbert and Richard Hunt of Chertsey,Battalion the East Surrey Regiment.

[Keith_history_buff]

For an act of bravery, whilst the Distinguished Conduct Medal seems apt, it could not be rewarded posthumously. (It appears his act of bravery was at Mons, and that he died the next month at the Battle of the Aisne. 'Sergt. R. Hunt displayed great gallantry at Mons, where he rescued three men, two being British officers, from a bullet-swept front.')

In such circumstances, an award of something would be deemed worthy, so the Medaille Militaire becoming available would have been a good way to address this. 

Is it the case that both he and his brother, whose CWGC entries record they were both Mentioned in Despatches, are in the same despatch, do you know?

[Terry_Reeves]

A total of 26,893 Orders and Decorations were conferred on the British Armies by the allied and and associated powers;   11, 652 to officers and 15,241 to other ranks. These totals were up to 15 May, 1920.

 

Source: Statistics of the Military Effort of The British Empire During the Great War 1914-1920. ( The War Office March, 1922)

 

TR

 

 

 

Edited 21 June , 2020 by Terry_Reeves

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Terry,

That is an interesting statistic, inasmuch as it clearly shows that the Officers got the Lion's share - proportionately - of the foreign awards awarded.

On another, somewhat similar, thread, I have Illustrated an IARO & Genl List group to Capt G. B. Goyder, later VD, which included a French Award (probably for efforts in 1917, whereby he was additionally Mentioned in a British Despatch, as Asst Prov. Marshal, 36 Ulster Div), and two Belgian awards (1919, additionally a second MiD). 

However, this thread asked after Soldiers, and whether it was rare for a British Soldier to receive a foreign award. With a figure of only fifteen thousand or so - considering the huge numbers involved - the answer seems to be a resounding Yes. 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[sr97]

36 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Is it the case that both he and his brother, whose CWGC entries record they were both Mentioned in Despatches, are in the same despatch, do you know?

 

Unsure Keith, have read through French's first three despatches on the long, long trail but could not see any mention of either brother, unless I am missing something. Considering the brothers died in early September, I assume they would be discussed in his earliest despatches.

[Keith_history_buff]

Confusingly, the medal card in WO 372/24 refer to the LG of 20 October 1914, and give a page number with no mention of him. There is further detail about there being an amended despatch in this post here: