Is the 2/4th Bn the same as 24th?

[CassieRae]

Hi, I am confused by the 2/4th battalion or the 1/4th - I need details on the 24th Bn of the Royal Berkshire, but need to know what to look for. Can someone please explain?

 

Many thanks for your time.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, CasseRae said:

Hi, I am confused by the 2/4th battalion or the 1/4th - I need details on the 24th Bn of the Royal Berkshire, but need to know what to look for. Can someone please explain?

 

Many thanks for your time.

The 4th was Territorial Force.  At first just the one battalion.

When war started it was realised that duplicates of the battalion would be needed to train and send reinforcements.  Plus also a place for those men who did not volunteer for service overseas. This latter was because the TF were originally for home defence.

 

So, second and third line duplicates of the 4th Battalion were formed.  These were known as 2/4th (the second line unit) and 3/4th (the third line unit).  In time the second line unit often went out to a colonial station to form its garrison and replace regulars so that they could be sent to war.  Meanwhile the third line continued to train new recruits and send drafts of reinforcements to the first line battalion (perhaps in France and Flanders) and the second line battalion (perhaps, e.g. in India).

 

These are just examples and you will need to research the 4th Battalion (and its duplicates) Royal Berks to determine actual movements.  You will find them recorded in the excellent ‘longlongtrail’ adjunct to this website.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited 20 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Hi,

 

A quick look at the Long, Long Trail will tell you there was no 24th Battalion of the Royal Berkshire Regiment.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/princess-charlotte-of-waless-royal-berkshire-regiment/

 

You are probably after the 2/4th Battalion. Landed at Le Havre on the 27th May 1916 as part of the 61st (2nd South Midland) Division.

 

What sort of details are you after?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[CassieRae]

Thank you Peter, relatives have told me:

Private William H. Rivers #5838  in the Princess of Charlotte Wales Royal Berks Regiment 24th Battalion.
William's battalion were relieving the 6th Warricks at Martinsart Woods near Ovillers. He was injured on the 21st Dec and died 22nd Dec 1916 buried in Stump Road cemetery.

 

24th Battalion was written this way in an email.

 

Is this William's Bn then: The 2/4th Battalion was formed at Reading, Berkshire, as a duplicate of the 1/4th Battalion and served in the 184th Brigade, part of the 61st (2nd South Midland) Division and, like the majority of the British Army, served on the Western Front during the war.* Wikipedia

Edited 20 June , 2020 by CasseRae

[Steven Broomfield]

There was no 24th Battalion of the Berkshires, so it must be 2/4th.

[CassieRae]

Cheers Steven

[roughdiamond]

CWGC entry confirms 2/4th.

 

You say "William's battalion were relieving the 6th Warricks at Martinsart Woods near Ovillers". Almost certainly 2/6th Warwicks who were 182nd Bn who were like 2/4th Berks in 61Div.

 

Sam

Edited 20 June , 2020 by roughdiamond

[RaySearching]

Confirmation from SDGW

[PRC]

Battalion War Diary for the 21st December 1916 is just a one-liner.

Artillery activity on both sides much as usual. Casualties 2/Lt Keys wounded, 3 OR killed and 3 OR wounded.

https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/research/war-diaries/detail?id=4661&regiment=4&day=21&month=12

Unfortunately War diaries, as you can see, rarely mention other ranks by name.

 

His entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects, (Ancestry) may tell you which medical facility he died in. Although he now rests in Stump Road Cemetery, Grandcourt that probably wasn't where he was originally interred, as Grandcourt wasn't captured until February 1917. In the spring of 1917 the Germans decided to make a strategic retreat to their prepared defensive position known as the Hindenburg Line. With the battlefields of the Somme now well within the allied zone an opportunity was taken to clean up the battlefield, consolidating numerous small cemeteries and battlefield burials as well as searching for the missing. The impact of this for those of us looking back over a 100 years later means you can't simply say if he was buried at place "X" as having died of wounds then he must have been treated at this Field Ambulance or that Casualty Clearing Station.

 

If you can identify the medical facility then there is a small chance that their admissions & discharges registers have survived. Scans of those can be seen on FindMyPast - and Forces War Records claim to have transcribed an even larger selection. How true that is I do not know.

 

The Army Register of Soldiers Effects is a financial ledger rather than an inventory, so should also tell you who the balance of his pay went to, and later on, who received his War Gratuity. It sometimes also states whether anyone received a pension as a result of his death. If they did then there may well be additional documents on Ancestry & Fold3.

 

His Medal Index Card only shows him as qualifying for the British War Medal & Victory Medal. That combination of medals would indicate he did not serve in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916. He may therefore have gone out with the 2nd/4th Battalion or he may have been part of a later replacement draft.

 

The Long, Long Trail has this to say about the 61st Division.

 

1916

In February and early March 1916 the Division moved to Salisbury Plain. King George V inspected the Division at Bulford on 5 May 1916.

The Division was warned in May that it would go on overseas service and entrainment began on the 21st. By 28 May the Division, less the Ammunition Column (which was still at Le Havre), had concentrated in the area of Merville – Gonnehem – Busnes – Thiennes. The Division then remained in France and Flanders and took part in the following engagements:

 

1916

The Attack at Fromelles
The first major action in which the Division was engaged turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. An attack was made on 19 July 1916 at Fromelles, a subsidiary action to the much larger battle taking place further south on the Somme. The Division suffered very heavy casualties for no significant gain and no enemy reserves were diverted from the Somme. Such was the damage to the Division and its reputation that it was not used again other than for holding trench lines until 1917.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/61st-2nd-south-midland-division/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_at_Fromelles

 

The attack at Fromelles unfortunately saw them unfairly labelled the 'Sixty-Worst'. It was only in the closing months of the war that they were able to rise above that reputation.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

[JOVE23]

@laughton Might also be able to dig into the burial returns and see where his remains were recovered from when the cemeteries were consolidated.

[laughton]

He is recorded on the CWGC as 2nd/4th Royal Berkshire Regiment (link). For UKNA war diary: Princess Charlotte of Wales’s (Royal Berkshire Regiment December 1916 page 104 of 758). The battalion relieved the 6th Warwicks on the 19th in the trenches at 57d.R.21.a.6.7. That puts them just north of Courcelette, which agrees with the Brigade war diary being at Mouquet Farm (war diary page 375 of 855). Patrols of the battalion were sent out on both flanks to clean up positions. As per the previous posts, it appears he was a casualty of the artillery on the 21st. There are two known burials, Private Pepper (recovered from sector 57d.R.22) and Lance Corporal Wright (recovered in Spring 1917 - no details).

 

He was in the same location that had been occupied by we the Canadians throughout most of September and October 1916, so an area I know well.

 

He has only a GRRF:

Stump Road Cemetery Row A Grave 60

 

There is no indication that there were any concentrations into this cemetery, either in the historical text or the records of the graves. The cemetery was made by the 7th Buffs on December 1916, the month that Private Rivers was killed in action. It would have been a burial from a medical facility.

 

 

[PRC]

31 minutes ago, laughton said:

There is no indication that there were any concentrations into this cemetery, either in the historical text or the records of the graves. The cemetery was made by the 7th Buffs on December 1916, the month that Private Rivers was killed in action.

 

Possibly at odds with what the CWGC has to say on the history of the cemetery.

 

"The village of Grandcourt was reached by men of the 36th (Ulster) Division on the 1st July 1916, but it could not be held. It was occupied by the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division on the 7th February 1917, after a series of local attacks begun in November 1916. Stump Road Cemetery was made by the 7th Buffs in the following month."

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/30901/stump-road-cemetery,-grandcourt/

 

I would read that the 7th Buffs created the cemetery in March 1917. Given the fighting going on in the area would seem unlikely a Field Ambulance would have been quite that close and making burials in December - but possibly something like a RAP might have been.

 

As this predates any IWGC involvement I didn't think there were any surviving records but would be good to know if there are.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 21 June , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[laughton]

Hmmm ... I read it as after the November 1916 series of attacks. More research needed! Best I check which months the 7th Buffs were there.

 

31 Buffs buried in Stump Road Nov 1916. None in 1917 period.

 

Quick answer, in pool on cell!

[CassieRae]

23 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 4th was Territorial Force.  At first just the one battalion.

When war started it was realised that duplicates of the battalion would be needed to train and send reinforcements.  Plus also a place for those men who did not volunteer for service overseas. This latter was because the TF were originally for home defence.

 

So, second and third line duplicates of the 4th Battalion were formed.  These were known as 2/4th (the second line unit) and 3/4th (the third line unit).  In time the second line unit often went out to a colonial station to form its garrison and replace regulars so that they could be sent to war.  Meanwhile the third line continued to train new recruits and send drafts of reinforcements to the first line battalion (perhaps in France and Flanders) and the second line battalion (perhaps, e.g. in India).

 

These are just examples and you will need to research the 4th Battalion (and its duplicates) Royal Berks to determine actual movements.  You will find them recorded in the excellent ‘longlongtrail’ adjunct to this website.

 

Hope that helps.

Yes, thank you it has helped. Now makes sense, so thanks for explanation. Apologies for overlooking yesterday.

[CassieRae]

May I thank you all for the input - really helpful and material I can add to what I have collected. Many thanks to you all, forgive this collective appreciation.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, laughton said:

Hmmm ... I read it as after the November 1916 series of attacks. More research needed! Best I check which months the 7th Buffs were there.

 

31 Buffs buried in Stump Road Nov 1916. None in 1917 period.

 

Quick answer, in pool on cell!

The 7th East Kents were pulled out of the line after the attack in mid November 1916 and by a series of marches reached the Abbeville area, according to the Battalion War Diary. Earlier in the month they provided a number of working parties to clear up various trenches, but nothing to say whether they did or didn't commence work on a new cemetery.

 

After two months out of the front line the East Kents returned to practically the same trenches and would soon be pressing forward and following the Germans as they retreated to the Hindenburg line. This spell ended with a relief by 10th Essex on the 3rd March, 1917, with the 55th Brigade moving into reserve. The diary then lists the various working parties supplied each day, with work on roads and in support of various RFA units being the main tasks until you get to the entry for the 20th March 1917.

 

"All Coys buried dead under Divisional Arrangements; On completion of work Coys moved independantly to WELLINGTON HUTS." The next day the Brigade appears to be leaving the area.

 

Unfortunately the East Kents War Diary downloadable from the National Archive doesn't have any appendices, so no copy of the Divisional Arrangements. The War Diary of the 55th Infantry Brigade covering March 1917 also has no appendices, (National Archive version), nor does it have copies of each Battalions War Diary. The text just refers to working parties.

 

C.T. Atkinsons Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment 1914-1919 in Chapter 14 also provides mixed evidence.

 

The 7th Battalion Queens Own, who were in the same Brigade as the 7th East Kents, were withdrawn from the Ancre Heights after the attacks of the 18th November 1916 and spent two months being rebuilt and brought up to speed in the Abbeville area. They returned mid-February 1917,to practically the same trenches, taking part in a disasterous attack on the 14th. CWGC has 18 dead, three in Stump Road. The four in Regina Trench are concentrations. In mid-March the 7th Queens Own leave the Somme.

 

Of the other units in the Brigade, the War Diary for the 7th Battalion The Queens (Royal West Surrey Regiment) has them working on clearing the railway line N.E. of Miraumont before proceeding via Boom Ravine to Wellington Huts on the 20th March 1917. The 8th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment, were working on Roads & Communications, before moving into huts.

 

It's speculation on my part, but as the Division was leaving the area, that last day would have seemed a good day to pull together scattered battlefield burials into one concentration, with possibly a small ceremony and some kind of tribute.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[laughton]

As with the Kipling Case, we refer to the Canadians to see if there is additional information, as we have the burial return details.

 

Private Leonard Thomas Veater #135591 of the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion was killed in action on 30 September 1916, in the cross-over day between of the Battle of Thiepval Ridge and the Battle of Ancre Heights. The 2nd CMR (3rd Canadian Division) was working in concert with the 11th British Division in a joint attack on Hessian Trench (57d.R.21 - 57d.R.22). For reference, the main trenches from north to south are Desire Trench R.15.c, Regina Trench R.21.b, Hessian Trench R.21.c, and Zollern Trench R.27.b.

 

The Stump Road Cemetery is near Desire Trench in R.15.c, which is where Private Veater's remains lie in grave B.72. The Canadian records tells us that Private Veater was killed by a shell while in Zollern Trench and that he was initially buried at the rear of the parados, which would be about 1,500 yards south of the Stump Road Cemetery. That would mean that his remains had to have been recovered from the battlefield at some time and move to Sump Road. Privates Doman and Flint. also Canadian CMR men, had no record of burial at the time of their death and also ended up in Stump Road Cemetery. Private Doman was killed while bringing up ammunition to Regina Trench, so also to the south of the cemetery.

 

This information provides somewhat circumstantial evidence of the concentrations, as there are no actual concentration or exhumation reports.

 

 

[PRC]

The 18th Division leaving this whole area in March 1917 was more than just a Divisional relief. Page 163 of "The 18th Division in the Great War" by G.H.F. Nichols records:-

 

"The enemy, by shortening his own line of defence, had shortened our front too, and troops were becoming congested on the decreasing front. Consequently orders arriving for the pinching out of the II Corps, in which we were, by the V. Corps, who were on our left, by 21st March."

 

Again it's circumstantial but looking like little prospect of the men of the Division returning to fight in the area any time soon, and so a possible justification for more permanently taking care of their dead.

 

The LLT also has an interesting read on "Battlefield clearance and burial". Salient points for me were:-

 

 - At the start of the Somme battles there was no formal process replicated across the British and Empire Forces.

The massive losses of the Somme offensive revealed organisational deficiencies. Fabian Ware, (now Lieutenant-Colonel in DGR&E) wrote in 1917:At the beginning of the Somme offensive last year I called at the Fourth Army HQ and saw Gen Hutton with regard to this question of burials. There was no organisation for the purpose of the time and I was satisfied after having discussed the matter with them that it was impossible to establish any proper organisation at that time in the middle of severe fighting. Subsequently the organisation of Corps Burial Officers was established.

 

 - The dead at Beaumont Hamel were left out all winter, (or confusingly were recovered and buried by their own units with a consequent effect on morale - not sure which!)

In some areas e.g. at Beaumont Hamel in the winter of 1916 the ground was covered with unburied dead and it became a matter of real military importance that the work of burial should be conducted.

 

Yet 2nd Lieutenant W.N. Collins, the Burial Officer of the 51st Highland Division in November 1916 at Beaumont Hamel, clearly described the unfortunate effects of using the same units in clearance of the battlefield as had carried out the recent successful attack across it. Of his men, “quite a number…were related to the ones who were dead, brothers, cousins, and they of course were very upset, very very upset. “Both failure to bury and the act of burying were therefore reasonably regarded as potential morale problems.

 

That making it a unit \ divisional issue there could be problems if the unit was rotated out of the area while fighting was still ongoing.

 

On 25 January 1917, G.H. Fowke, Adjutant-General at GHQ discussed (perhaps belatedly) “the necessity of provision of some special organisation to undertake burials.”He noted that the alternatives were either “To make divisions responsible for the burial of their own dead,” or “To detail such parties as can be made available from time to time, e.g. cavalry has been made use of for this purpose.” He noted that the withdrawal of a division to refit after heavy losses might preclude it from the first strategy, and that “It is doubtful policy, from the point of view of morale, to use as burial parties troops as may be called upon to fight later.”

 

 - By the start of April 1917  -

 

In this, as in operational areas, the BEF demonstrated a ‘learning curve.’ The new roles of the Divisional and Corps Burial Officers became important in liaison with the DGR&E, reaching in some cases a high degree of organisation. Thus, the preparations of the Canadian Corps at Vimy Ridge in April 1917 led to the outcome that: “Within twenty-four hours … the graves were each marked and recorded, and the organization did not break down even in that sector where a Canadian Burial Officer was killed.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/burial-clearance-and-burial/

 

Interesting stuff,

Peter