Captain George Milner .R.F.C Pilot

[SUZUKIBIKER]

Hi can somebody out there answer the Questions I have Marked with Question Marks.......My grandfather George Milner D.O.B 30th Aug 1896, joined the 148th Bn CEF in Montreal,Canada as a Private with regimental no 841622.He was attestated on 26 feb 1916.His commanding officer was Lt Col A.A.Magee.George milner did four months in Auxillary Bn and four months in COTC according to question 10 on his Attestation Paper.He was promoted L/Cpl,Cpl and Sgt and sailed to England from Halifax on  HMT SS. Laconia on 26-sept 1916.Stationed at Bramshott.Transferred to Cadet Military School,Crowborough on completion of 6th OTC Class is transferred on 3-2-17 to 20th Res Bn Shoreham as Temp Lt on 3-2-17.Lon Gaz 29976 8-3-17 .Taken on strength in 1st Quebec Regimental Depot Bramshott on 15-3-17.and attached to the RFC the same day.These records came from National Achives Ottawa,Canada. 

 My late father told me his father learnt to fly at Brooklands and completed 10 hours flying time after a completing a Tour as Observer.The following information I downloaded from "find my past" website as follows

No1 School of Military Aeronautics Reading 15-3-17 as Air Observer.

Reading to 109 Ground School Brooklands on 26-3-17 -is 109 correct??????????

109 Ground School to 12 SQDN BEF-16-6-17- Appointment as F/O Observer- London Gazette 30170- National Achives Kew say he completed a Tour of Operations  accumulating 166 Hours as Observer.          From 10-8-17 from RFC 3RD ECHILON to 12th SQDN What does that mean???? ????

My father told me his father was sent home to RFC Brooklands Surely it would say Returned to Brooklands for Pilot Training???????

Reading to 68 Training School,Catterick,Yorks on 1-10-17.My Grandfather met his future wife at a dance at RFC Catterick.68 Training School to 46 Training School 19th Wing,Doncaster,Yorks on 19-10-17 I guess there were seperate "Wings" like Classes within each Training Squadron?? 

46 Training School to 20 Training School 24th Wing,Wye,Kent on 18-11-17.

20 Training School 24th Wing to 20 Training School on 15-2-18- Appointment as Flying Officer.Is this correct?????????Going from 20TS 24TH Wing to 20 TS

20 Training School to Artillery and Infantry Co-Operation School,Hursley Park,Hants on 4-3-18.

Artillery and Infantry Co-Operation School to 9 SQDN ON 9-3-18 {RE8} France 

 

Has flown DH6,small Armstrong Whitworth,BE2E,RE8,possibly AVRO 504k.

National Achives Canada also mentions 18- 6-18 4th SQDN Granted 14 Days Leave Did he fly as Observer in 12th SQDN and 4th SQDN then 9th SQDN  as Pilot.Records in UK show that Lt George Milner{Quebec Regiment} served with 9 SQDN from 11th March 1918 to 10th Jan 1919.I have photos of my Grandfather in 9 SQDN as Flight Commander sitting next to his CO Major James Rodwell at the end of the war in front of RE8 in Belgium. I also have  9 SQDN Combat Records saying 10th Aug 18 Lt G Milner/2 Lt L.F.Rowsell flying RE8 D4862 9 SQDN Bombing Machine Gun Shot- Up-Damaged-OK Enemy Aircraft? Pilot Lt G Milner whilst flying in RE8 F5907 on 16 Aug 18 was attacked over Oricourt on Bombing Operation and his Observer 2/Lt L.F.Rowsell was wounded by shrapnel from Machine Gun fire.I have copies of the Casualty Card AM Form 150  stating combat was in France and 2/Lt L.F.Rowsell aged 19, 3 Months Hospital,unfit GSO fit HS Ground Duties Cat C2 Permanent.   Permanantly Unfit as Pilot Or Observer-3 Weeks Leave Transfered to U/List AFL 3759 aa

On 6 Sept 18 Lt G.Milner flying RE8 C2701 with Lt R.H.Nicholls as Observer was flying over the Lines on Offensive Patrol and was attacked by Pfalz escorting two seater.On 3 Oct 18 Lt G Milner flying RE8 C2701 WITH 2/Lt S Whitehead took off at 1800 HRS flying over FLATIRON WOOD on NF/CA Patrol attacked by five Fokkers.Observer fired 60 Rounds-Enemy aircraft chased off by SE5S

Thanks Geoff Milner

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[charlie962]

Geof, this doesn't answer your question marks but does it add anything to the later notes ?

Courtesy RAF Museum casualtyforms.org

 

PS can you point me to a source of 9 squadron records for late 1917 early 1918 please ?

[MikeMeech]

3 hours ago, SUZUKIBIKER said:

Hi can somebody out there answer the Questions I have Marked with Question Marks.......My grandfather George Milner D.O.B 30th Aug 1896, joined the 148th Bn CEF in Montreal,Canada as a Private with regimental no 841622.He was attestated on 26 feb 1916.His commanding officer was Lt Col A.A.Magee.George milner did four months in Auxillary Bn and four months in COTC according to question 10 on his Attestation Paper.He was promoted L/Cpl,Cpl and Sgt and sailed to England from Halifax on  HMT SS. Laconia on 26-sept 1916.Stationed at Bramshott.Transferred to Cadet Military School,Crowborough on completion of 6th OTC Class is transferred on 3-2-17 to 20th Res Bn Shoreham as Temp Lt on 3-2-17.Lon Gaz 29976 8-3-17 .Taken on strength in 1st Quebec Regimental Depot Bramshott on 15-3-17.and attached to the RFC the same day.These records came from National Achives Ottawa,Canada. 

 My late father told me his father learnt to fly at Brooklands and completed 10 hours flying time after a completing a Tour as Observer.The following information I downloaded from "find my past" website as follows

No1 School of Military Aeronautics Reading 15-3-17 as Air Observer.

Reading to 109 Ground School Brooklands on 26-3-17 -is 109 correct??????????

109 Ground School to 12 SQDN BEF-16-6-17- Appointment as F/O Observer- London Gazette 30170- National Achives Kew say he completed a Tour of Operations  accumulating 166 Hours as Observer.          From 10-8-17 from RFC 3RD ECHILON to 12th SQDN What does that mean???? ????

My father told me his father was sent home to RFC Brooklands Surely it would say Returned to Brooklands for Pilot Training???????

Reading to 68 Training School,Catterick,Yorks on 1-10-17.My Grandfather met his future wife at a dance at RFC Catterick.68 Training School to 46 Training School 19th Wing,Doncaster,Yorks on 19-10-17 I guess there were seperate "Wings" like Classes within each Training Squadron?? 

46 Training School to 20 Training School 24th Wing,Wye,Kent on 18-11-17.

20 Training School 24th Wing to 20 Training School on 15-2-18- Appointment as Flying Officer.Is this correct?????????Going from 20TS 24TH Wing to 20 TS

20 Training School to Artillery and Infantry Co-Operation School,Hursley Park,Hants on 4-3-18.

Artillery and Infantry Co-Operation School to 9 SQDN ON 9-3-18 {RE8} France 

 

Has flown DH6,small Armstrong Whitworth,BE2E,RE8,possibly AVRO 504k.

National Achives Canada also mentions 18- 6-18 4th SQDN Granted 14 Days Leave Did he fly as Observer in 12th SQDN and 4th SQDN then 9th SQDN  as Pilot.Records in UK show that Lt George Milner{Quebec Regiment} served with 9 SQDN from 11th March 1918 to 10th Jan 1919.I have photos of my Grandfather in 9 SQDN as Flight Commander sitting next to his CO Major James Rodwell at the end of the war in front of RE8 in Belgium. I also have  9 SQDN Combat Records saying 10th Aug 18 Lt G Milner/2 Lt L.F.Rowsell flying RE8 D4862 9 SQDN Bombing Machine Gun Shot- Up-Damaged-OK Enemy Aircraft? Pilot Lt G Milner whilst flying in RE8 F5907 on 16 Aug 18 was attacked over Oricourt on Bombing Operation and his Observer 2/Lt L.F.Rowsell was wounded by shrapnel from Machine Gun fire.I have copies of the Casualty Card AM Form 150  stating combat was in France and 2/Lt L.F.Rowsell aged 19, 3 Months Hospital,unfit GSO fit HS Ground Duties Cat C2 Permanent.   Permanantly Unfit as Pilot Or Observer-3 Weeks Leave Transfered to U/List AFL 3759 aa

On 6 Sept 18 Lt G.Milner flying RE8 C2701 with Lt R.H.Nicholls as Observer was flying over the Lines on Offensive Patrol and was attacked by Pfalz escorting two seater.On 3 Oct 18 Lt G Milner flying RE8 C2701 WITH 2/Lt S Whitehead took off at 1800 HRS flying over FLATIRON WOOD on NF/CA Patrol attacked by five Fokkers.Observer fired 60 Rounds-Enemy aircraft chased off by SE5S

Thanks Geoff Milner

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi

 

No. 9 Sqn. Squadron Record Book has details for Lt. G. Milner's flights on 4 July 1918, Battle of Hamel, flying RE.8 B5098 with Lt. A. Porteous as observer.  No. 9 Sqn. being involved in small arms ammunition dropping on this day.

1. Travelling Flight from ARGENVILLERS to VILLERS BOCAGE, 3.50am-4.30am.

2. Ammo drop 5.55am-8.30am.  2 boxes SAA dropped 1 at P.20c.2.8. and 1 at P.19b.9.1.  Weather; Clouds 2000 ft. Visibility Fair.

3. Ammo drop 7.55am-8.30am.  2 boxes SAA dropped at P.20d.2.9.  At 8.15am 1 Tank seen at P.21a.2.4.  Weather fine, Visibility Fair, Clouds 2000 ft.

4. Ammo drop 9.30am-10.05am. 2 boxes SAA dropped at P.20c.8.9.  Enemy now shelling Hamel Wood.  One of our tanks P.20c.8.9. being shelled.  Weather poor, visibility bad.

5. Ammo drop 11.10am-11.40am.  2 boxes SAA dropped at P.20c.1.8.  Machine Gun fire from ground encountered from South East of BOIS D'ACCROCHE.

 

I hope that is of interest.

 

Mike

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

Reading to 109 Ground School Brooklands on 26-3-17 -is 109 correct??????????

I think it is Wireless and  Observer School rather than 109 Ground School at Brooklands.  the 10 is a W and the 9 is an &. The O is the same as FO for flying offficer on rh side of same page.  Brooklands is correct.

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, SUZUKIBIKER said:

RFC 3RD ECHILON to 12th SQDN What does that mean???? ????

3rd Echelon signifies Base Records  in France, I think. ie a holding post.

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

20 Training School 24th Wing to 20 Training School on 15-2-18- Appointment as Flying Officer.Is this correct?????????

Insert 'on' before appointment

 

I think it also reads 24thTwg as in Training Wing ?  needs checking

Edited 18 June , 2020 by charlie962

[SUZUKIBIKER]

18 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

 

No. 9 Sqn. Squadron Record Book has details for Lt. G. Milner's flights on 4 July 1918, Battle of Hamel, flying RE.8 B5098 with Lt. A. Porteous as observer.  No. 9 Sqn. being involved in small arms ammunition dropping on this day.

1. Travelling Flight from ARGENVILLERS to VILLERS BOCAGE, 3.50am-4.30am.

2. Ammo drop 5.55am-8.30am.  2 boxes SAA dropped 1 at P.20c.2.8. and 1 at P.19b.9.1.  Weather; Clouds 2000 ft. Visibility Fair.

3. Ammo drop 7.55am-8.30am.  2 boxes SAA dropped at P.20d.2.9.  At 8.15am 1 Tank seen at P.21a.2.4.  Weather fine, Visibility Fair, Clouds 2000 ft.

4. Ammo drop 9.30am-10.05am. 2 boxes SAA dropped at P.20c.8.9.  Enemy now shelling Hamel Wood.  One of our tanks P.20c.8.9. being shelled.  Weather poor, visibility bad.

5. Ammo drop 11.10am-11.40am.  2 boxes SAA dropped at P.20c.1.8.  Machine Gun fire from ground encountered from South East of BOIS D'ACCROCHE.

 

I hope that is of interest.

 

Mike

Thanks Mike for the information,In some 9 sqdn records i was sent from retired AVM Peter Dye ex 9 Sqdn it says Lt P Porteous flying as Observer with Pilot Lt M Fortsyth on 21-july 18 flying RE8 D4869 on Artillery Observation.Maybe there were two Porteous but must be a must be a spelling mistake 

[SUZUKIBIKER]

16 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I think it is Wireless and  Observer School rather than 109 Ground School at Brooklands.  the 10 is a W and the 9 is an &. The O is the same as FO for flying offficer on rh side of same page.  Brooklands is correct.

I think you are right Mike, I can see it now with magnifying glasses,typical admin scribble,Have you downloaded the same " find my past "page I guess???

yes i think you are right Mike Have you downloaded the same find my past page???

[charlie962]

10 minutes ago, SUZUKIBIKER said:

ave you downloaded the same " find my past "page I guess???

probably !

[mickdavis]

The sequence of training units supplied by Find my Past is misleading, not only in the use of Training School, rather than the correct Training Squadron.

 

68 Training Squadron was at Bramham Moor (Tadcaster) in 8th Wing by 1.10.1917, serving as an elementary Training Squadron with MF.Se.11s and, still, some MFSe.7s!

46 Training Squadron was at Catterick in 19th Wing as a higher Training Squadron, dedicated to turning out Day Light Bombing pilots for DH4 squadrons.

Milner seems to have been downgraded from this because of his relatively quick posting to 20 Training Squadron in 24th Wing, which was at Spittlegate (Grantham) in 24th Wing on 18.11.1918 but moved to nearby Harlaxton on 27.11.1917. 

Three months training over the winter of 1917-18 sounds about right. Hursley Park was the location of a ground scjhool, the flying elemnt of its course took place at Worthy Down. 

[SUZUKIBIKER]

16 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Insert 'on' before appointment

 

I think it also reads 24thTwg as in Training Wing ?  needs checking

Yes I think you could be right,I guess you had training wings, like Classes in a training sqdn.My father trained as a pilot on tigermoths and mk2 Ansons in Canada then went on to be flight engineer and  second pilot on Lancasters in 115 sqdn in WW2.He did four yrs Air Traffic Control or Flying Control as it was then after demobbed from Bomber Command in early 1946.He was in uk and four yrs in Germany during the Berlin Airlift in RAF Gatow,Templehof,Wunsdorf,Gutersloh in the Control Towers.He went back to flying at RAF Cottesmore on Harvards in 7 FTS Flying Wing,then onto 201 Advance Flying School RAF Swinderby on Wellington T10, Then 99 SQDN Hastings AT RAF Lyneham,Anson C19 at  Netheravon,then Valettas at 52 sqdn and 30 sqdn then left the RAF In 1955 to become airline pilot I digress sorry

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, SUZUKIBIKER said:

I digress sorry

easily done !

 

About info on 9 Sqdn- how did you contact AVM Dye ? I know he has written about them. I have an interest in a pilot late 1917 early 1918.

 

Charlie

Edited 19 June , 2020 by charlie962

[mickdavis]

Wings were the higher command structures - 8th Wing, for example, incorporated the training stations at Beverley, Bramham Moor, Eastburn  and Doncaster and the training squadrons that they housed.

[DaveKey]

On 19/06/2020 at 13:13, mickdavis said:

Three months training over the winter of 1917-18 sounds about right. Hursley Park was the location of a ground scjhool, the flying elemnt of its course took place at Worthy Down. 

Just to add to Mick's comment about Hursley there is a little one the Artillery & Infantry CoOperation School at Hursley & Worthy Down here: https://hursleypark.wixsite.com/history/single-post/2018/05/11/The-best-I-think-predominate

There were a variety of different courses of different duration according to the type of training.

In May the school moved completely to Worthy Down (although it was still incomplete) to make way for the US AEF who converted the existing British military hospital and army (RFC/RAF) camp into what was planned to be the largest US Military Hospital I the UK