Tracing My Great Grandfather (RGA)

[Guest]

Trying to trace my Great Grandfathers service during the war. - Unit history, locations etc 

PSA the information I've found and please note that his surname has actually been incorrectly spelt  in the documents I've found. ( Scourfield NOT Scowrfield )

 

Evan Scourfield (could be Scowrfield in other records)

221137

 

I've had some luck tracing his brothers but not my great grandfather.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated 

 

Edited 17 June , 2020 by aledjn

[sr97]

Evan Scourfield was a gunner in the Royal Garrison Artillery. The RGA were positioned behind the front line and was sometimes supported by the RFC (Royal Flying Corps) who would help give corrections for aiming. By 1924, the RGA became re-amalgamated into the Royal Artillery.

 

The Forces War Records site has Evan's (surname spelt as Scowrfield) record dating to 1914, https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/namesearch/?FirstName=evan&Surname=scowrfield&RecordType=NotSelected&RecordDateStartYear=1700&RecordDateEndYear=2020&Step=1&ReceivedGallantryAward=False, in 1914 the RGA were manning heavy guns and howitzers on the Western Front. However, Evans movements would largely depend on which Siege Battery he belonged to. The Long Long Trail website has a list of the battery's belonging to the RGA and their locations throughout the war, but I cannot seem to find which one he belonged to;

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/the-siege-batteries-of-the-royal-garrison-artillery/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

That’s a cracking photo of your grandfather with a type of horse classified officially as “heavy draught” and needed to pull the heavy guns of the RGA.  Typical breeds were shire horses like the Clydesdale and Suffolk Punch.  In Britain they had been used to pull HGV and omnibuses.  Later in the war the heaviest guns switched to steam and motor engines and military tractors, but the beast in your photo is a prime example of the heavy draught breed.  Gentle horses compared with high strung thoroughbreds, the drivers of the artillery and Army Service Corps often formed deep attachments with the horses that they were responsible for.  Each driver was directly responsible for two horses.

 

 

Edited 28 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Y dyn 'ma yw e?

 

Deaths Dec 1979   (>99%)
SCOURFIELD	EVAN	23AU1898	CARMARTHEN	24	1401

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

the drivers of the artillery and Army Service Corps often formed deep attachments with the horses

That last card is which monument ?

 

Charlie

[MaxD]

4 hours ago, sr97 said:

However, Evans movements would largely depend on which Siege Battery he belonged to.

 

Correct but the RGA also manned the Heavy Batteries,  the  Anti Aircraft sections (later batteries), the Mountain Batteries and around UK the Coast Artillery so the field is vast!!

 

Max

[sr97]

13 minutes ago, MaxD said:

the field is vast!!

 

Is there any database or collections which list the various batteries and their equivalent members?

 

Stephen

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

That last card is which monument ?

 

Charlie

Monument?  It’s a famous oil painting titled Goodbye Old Man, by Fortunino Matania (Italian, 1881-1963), showing a British soldier saying farewell to his dying horse.  It was commissioned by the Blue Cross in 1916 to raise money to help horses on active service. 
 

The following two poems were inspired by Matania’s painting.

1.  A Soldier's Kiss
by Henry Chappell

Only a dying horse! Pull off the gear,
And slip the needless bit from frothing jaws, Drag it aside there, leaving the roadway clear, The battery thunders on with scarce a pause.
Prone by the shell-swept highway there it lies With quivering limbs, as fast the life-tide fails, Dark films are closing o’er the faithful eyes That mutely plead for aid where none avails.
Onward the battery rolls, but one there speeds Heedless of comrade’s voice or bursting shell, Back to the wounded friend who lonely bleeds Beside the stony highway where he fell.
Only a dying horse! he swiftly kneels,
Lifts the limp head and hears the shivering sigh Kisses his friend, while down his cheek there steals Sweet pity’s tear, "Goodbye old man, Goodbye".
No honours wait him, medal, badge or star, Though scarce could war a kindlier deed unfold; He bears within his breast, more precious far Beyond the gift of kings, a heart of gold.

2.  Good-bye, Old Man
(Suggested by Matania's picture of a soldier's farewell to his horse)

Good-bye, old man; we've fought our last together, You've struggled bravely, but you've got to die! Old man, it almost breaks my heart to leave you, Without one other word, except "Good-bye".
Good-bye, old man; we've kept up well together, And always shared whatever's come our way,
We came to help old Britain fight the Germans, And up to now we've kept 'em well at bay.
Good-bye, old man; I know you're going to suffer, For there are great tears in your eyes,
I wish you understood that 'tis for Britain
That every hero fights, and bleeds, and dies!
Good-bye, old man; you won't be here much longer, You've got to go, old man, and go alone,

We've always had our troubles both together, And life won't seem the same when you are gone!
Good-bye, old man; I wish that you could answer,
And tell me all your brown eyes try to say. You know, old man, I've seen a lot of suffering,
But never felt just like I feel to-day.

Edited 28 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Aledjn, welcome.

 

Your Great Grandfather was, I presume, born 1898.     edit (if Dr Dai was right about death?)

 

By looking at similar service numbers we can get some clues:

He will probably have originally been called up in early 1916 but then immediately transferred to the Army Reserve, perhaps more useful at home- farm worker 1911 census? or perhaps a miner by 1916?

 

He was the mobilized from the Reserve about 4th June 1918 and posted as a Gunner, RGA to No 1 Depot in Derby. After about 3 months training he will have been sent across to France, hence his entitlement to the British War and Victory Medals.

 

His familiarity with horses from farming background will have helped him no doubt ?

 

I cannot say to which Battery he was posted in France.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong on family details

 

Charlie

 

Edt:    PS if your GGF was an older man, it would not change his mobilization. It might just mean he volunteered in 1915 but was immediately transferred to Reserve for same reasons- needed in his existing job.

 

Please confirm some family details

 

Edit Edit   I now see your tree on Ancestry, confirming it is the 1898 Welshman.

Edited 28 June , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Monument?  It’s a famous oil painting titled Goodbye Old Man, by Fortunino Matania (Italian, 1881-1963), showing a British soldier saying farewell to his dying horse.

Yes, but I think I was recalling the 58th Div monument ?

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Yes, but I think I was recalling the 58th Div monument ?

I’m not aware of that which you are referring to Charlie.

[Michelle Young]

https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/58th-london-division-memorial.html

[charlie962]

Isn't that the link I posted, Michelle ? or perhaps it is not working ?

thanks, Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/58th-london-division-memorial.html

Thank you Michelle.  I can see now the similarities, although in the monument the soldier is standing, so perhaps inspired by the painting is a fair description.  I think I prefer the painting, which has more realism and immediacy to it.  I certainly wouldn’t be standing up next to a horse that had just been hit, no matter how much I’d loved it.

Edited 28 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Isn't that the link I posted, Michelle ? or perhaps it is not working ?

thanks, Charlie

No, it was just me being dim, Charlie, because it just had the title, I hadn’t sparked that it was a link.  Michelle understands that I’m a bit too literal...

Edited 28 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

Apologies Charlie, didn't check your link 

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

just me being dim

It is Sunday, you are allowed a day off. Anyway, both images (and the memorial must have been influenced by the painting) are deeply moving.

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

It is Sunday, you are allowed a day off. Anyway, both images (and the memorial must have been influenced by the painting) are deeply moving.

Charlie

Yes, I too have always found the image moving and I think it encapsulates very well the kind of intimacy that developed between man and animal where the day-to-day relationship had been so codependent.

Edited 28 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MaxD]

40 minutes ago, sr97 said:

Is there any database or collections which list the various batteries and their equivalent members?

 

Longlongtrail where you found the Siege battery list has similar for the remainder -  here:

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/?s=royal+garrison

 

There is no listing of the soldiers in the batteries.  If a man's service record has not survived (60% of them didn't) and his unit is not recorded on his medal records (as you see this man's isn't) or perhaps a Silver War Badge record or if he is commemorated then tying a man to a battery is verging on the impossible.  A number can be tied to a unit with a fair degree of certainty if he was a Territorial but otherwise not although even then he may have changed batteries..  Most will agree that finding RGA men is one of the more difficult.

 

Max

 

[FROGSMILE]

Max has explained the situation exactly.  You must remember that everything records wise relied upon paper, ink, and secure archiving, there were no computers at that time. Once the archives were largely destroyed in the 1941 Blitz it became all but impossible to trace battery nominal rolls.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Y dyn 'ma yw e?

 

Deaths Dec 1979   (>99%)
SCOURFIELD	EVAN	23AU1898	CARMARTHEN	24	1401

 

59 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Your Great Grandfather was, I presume, born 1898.     edit (if Dr Dai was right about death?)

I might or I might not.

I was asking the OP if I had the right man.

Scourfield is a fairly uncommon name nationwide, but there are several families in West Wales.

There were only 2 adult deaths in the 20th century.

The only other possibility is this man:

Deaths Dec 1949   (>99%)
Scourfield	Evan	74	Pembroke	8c	395

[charlie962]

8 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I might or I might not.

You have the right man. Aledjn has a tree here on Ancestry to which he has put that Roll !

Charlie

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thanks Charlie

[Guest]

On 28/06/2020 at 13:57, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Y dyn 'ma yw e?

 

Deaths Dec 1979   (>99%)
SCOURFIELD	EVAN	23AU1898	CARMARTHEN	24	1401

 ye ,na  hen dadcu fi.  Sai'n gwbod pam ond ma'r cyfenw wedi cael ei  sillafu yn anghywir ar y dogfennau o'r rhyfel!

Wrth edrych ar y "family tree" fi'n credu bod  4 o'i brodyr wedi mynd i'r rhyfel hefyd. 

 

" yes, that's my great grandfather, For some reason his surname is incorrect in the records from the war. From looking at the family tree I think 4 of his brothers also went to war"

 

 

 

The plan is to get the picture of him and his horse "colourised", framed and given to my grandmother (his daughter)

 

Trying to find out exactly where he was is proving to be very difficult and I suspect that I'll never find out, given the blitz destroyed records etc, unless of course my grandmother finds something in the attic! 

Edited 13 July , 2020 by aledjn