Service record for A Jones 20697 14th Battalion RWF

[Thomas Jones]

I've not long passed my test. My father did his test in Bangor with Gareth Buckley-Jones.  He said he was a councillor? 

Private Thomas John Williams 13682 wife was from Anglesey.

Daughter of Hugh Caddock-Evans, Gamekeepers in Llanddona and Brynsiencyn.

Edited 4 July , 2020 by Thomas Jones

[Thomas Jones]

On 17/06/2020 at 20:48, clive_hughes said:

The early December 1915 embarkation roll for 14th Bn. RWF survives, and 20697 A.O.Jones had a next-of-kin address of 15 Ambrose Street, Hirael, Bangor, Caernarfonshire.  The 6 or 8 numbers before his are also allocated to men from the Hirael or Lower Bangor district (where my father was brought up in the 1920s-30s). 

 

Clive

 

 

Hi Clive, I'm looking into why Arthur used 15 Ambrose street as next of kin.  Is there somewhere I can view the early December 1915 embarkation roll for 14th Bn. RWF?  If not, was anybody named as next of kin please in no.15?   Arthurs wife was a nurse in Ysbyty Minffordd Hospital and lived there during the war so maybe could not use the hospital address?  The name I have for 1911 is Marriot. Is that the same one in 1915? He was an ale brewer so maybe that was the incentive :)) Thanks, Tom

 

 

Edited 19 February , 2021 by Thomas Jones

[clive_hughes]

S'mai Thomas,

The 14th RWF Embarkation Roll (not the original item) was made available in a printed format, including some amendments/corrections, and incorporating a fuller list of all the officers who served with the unit 1915-18, and all the gallantry/distinguished service awards.  I reckon that was due to Lord David Davies, post-war, in the same way that he sponsored the "War Diary" extracts etc.  There's a copy in the Wheldon papers in Bangor University archives. not sure if the National Library in Aberystwyth has one. 

 

Member Hywyn might be worth a pm since he's studied Bangor and district (indeed, most of Arfon) in WW1, including newspapers, Absent Voters List and so on.  The latter source would be good, since it is organised by address, and all the Ambrose street men would be together. 

 

It's difficult to say why your relative is shown with a different address to the one expected.  The Roll isn't free from typos, so that's my best bet (but then neither are the newspaper reports of the period, or the AVList).    

 

All the best,

Clive

 

[roselyn2]

I’ve got a picture of the 14th. R. W. Fus. In 1939.  Hope this helps.  

Lyn.

[roselyn2]

Just found another picture of a soldier. 20900 Pte./ Cpl. W. C. T. Lloyd. 14th. R. W. Fus. D. C. M. Winner. L. G. 17.4. 1918.  M. I. D.   1. 2. 1918.   Lyn.

[Thomas Jones]

Thanks for the info Clive, I'll pm Hywyn and great photos couple of photos. The photo of 20900 Pte./ Cpl. W. C. T. Lloyd. has the exact background to the William Gordon Jones photo that is earlier in the thread.  I wonder if it's a pre-war photo or taken during the DCM medal award ceremony?

 

I cant see Arthur O Jones in the Queens Hotel group photo but I have spotted him though in the group photo in the 14th Batallion reunion in Llandinam 1937, stood next to William Gordon Jones.  The both lived very close to each other in Hirael. Arthur has the cap and William G J is in the grey suit. Cheers, Tom

 

[Hywyn]

In the Absent Voters AOJ is shown at 54 Ambrose Street (no one else shown and no one showing for number 15. )

 

There's a list of Bangor men having enlisted in N W Chronicle 15 1 1915 which includes Arthur Owen Jones 54 Ambrose Street.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4242826/4242833/109/  (penultimate column)

 

Was his wife called Cicely?

 

 

 

I have picked up the following on Hector Marriott in the newspapers. There might be more to be found on the online ones, I got these whilst perusing the papers at the Archives (obviously before 2011 as I haven't put 1911 census in the notes)

 

Hector Marriott, son of Mr and Mrs Marriott, Prince of Wales Hotel, High Street has joined the army. He was employed as cashier with Messrs Allsopps and was a member of the local volunteers. ( N W Chron 19 4 1918) Pte Hector Marriott, RWF, High Street is home on leave. (N W Chronicle 6/12/1918)   Pte Hector Marriott, RWF, son of Mr and Mrs Marriott, High St home on leave. (N W Chron 24 1 1919)     {1901 415 Carnarvon Rd. Father Hermann Marriott Alehouse keeper}   Not found to RWF in medals, service or pensions.

 

Edit: The marriage looks right as Arthur is at 34 Water Street with his brother? William Watkin Jones. Both shown as nephews of the head of household

Ancestry link = https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2353/images/rg14_34494_0671_06?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=c6edb0d99a91c79bbac9d8b0ad7fa64b&usePUB=true&_phsrc=a63794841&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=909209

 

Edited 20 February , 2021 by Hywyn

[Thomas Jones]

That's great information Hywyn, thank you very much. 

Yes his wife is Cicely Maggie Roberts.  Funnily enough, I have found Arthur and Cicely witnessing on a quite few Hirael people's marriage certificates.  I have just discovered that I am related to the witnesses on Arthur and Cicely's wedding certificate, William Jones Williams (GNR 310070 G.R.A.) who later married the other witness, Mary Williams in April 1915.  William J W was killed in the War 27th April 1918.  Starting to look into which battle that was.  Mary later married again in 1929 to Pte. Robert Eames 55274 and yes... Arthur witnessed that marriage too.

By chance, I recently bought the Trio of Medals belonging to William Eames 20681 (20631 two index cards!) as he was in the 14th Battalion RWF with Arthur. 

It's the closest I can get to Arthurs 14th Btn. medals, so I bought them.  Arthurs medals 20697 hopefully turn up one day, that's the hope anyway.

As it turns out, I'm also related to William Eames who is 1st cousin to Robert Eames, so the medals are effectively back in the family.

 

Very interesting what you discovered with the absent voters list about 54 and 15 Ambrose Street.  Cicely was apparently a nurse working in Ysbyty Minffordd in 1911 and lived there during the War.  This seems to fit with no residents in no.54.  No.60 Ambrose on her marriage certificate is the family address of Cicely's aunty's home inc. Mary Williams.  I presume she used this address to show a different address to Arthur?

 

It was mentioned by Clive that 15 Ambrose could be a typo.  I nearly never found out my family were in the the War at all because of typo's. 

Thanks again for your help, really appreciated. Best, Tom

 

Edited 20 February , 2021 by Thomas Jones

[Hywyn]

Highly likely the 15 was in error in the Embarkation List. There are quite a few minor typos.

Have you got this Cofeb Y Dewrion entry for William Williams?

 

 

Loose trans = <Photo> This is a photo of the late husband of Mary Williams, 48 Ambrose Street, Bangor. He belonged to the Territorial Force and was called up on August 4th 1914. He went to France 1st March 1916 and was in many battles where he fought bravely but, in an attack on April 25th 1918 he was seriously wounded and died within two days. He was buried in Haringha Military Cemetery, Poperinghe aged 24 years.

Edited 20 February , 2021 by Hywyn

[Hywyn]

Notes re Robert Eames. Nil other than a brief summary of his Records. There might be more of interest to you if you look them up.

Service Records: Attested aged 20 yrs, a Sawyer, on 9/12/1915 and mobilised as Pte 3897 in 6^th RWF (TF) on 31/1/1916. Sent overseas 9/12/1916 and posted to 13^th RWF as Pte 55274 on 14/12/1916. Demob to Army Reserve on 10/23/1919. NoK, father, Robert Eames, 3 Mason Street, Hirael.

 

William Eames:

List of men having enlisted since 8th January at Bangor includes William Eames, 21 Dean’s Court, Bangor. (N W Chronicle 15/1/1915)

 

 

Bangor’s Roll of Service printed in The Chronicle on April 16th 1915: 14th RWF 20681

 

Nominal Roll of Officers and Men of the 14th Battalion RWF embarking for France on 1st Dec 1915 has Pte 20681 W Eames of 21 Dean’s Court, Bangor.

 

 

Pte William Eames, RWF, Deans Court has been shot in the left hip. He is now in a Canadian Hospital in France. (NW Chronicle 21/7/1916)

 

 

North Wales Chronicle RWF Casualty list dated 4/8/1916 has Pte 20681 W Eames, Bangor as wounded.

 

 

Medal Card: Pte 20681 in RWF and then Pte 131657 in Labour Corps. Demob to Army reserve 23/8/1919.

 

Note: According to No Labour, No Battle (by Ivor Lee and John Starling) he would have gone to the Labour Corps around April/May 1917

 

[Thomas Jones]

Yes I just found it on Thursday.  Made up to find that.  I had seen it a couple of years ago but never knew of any connection to him at the time.  I've found a bit of information in Ancestry like about his War Grave and his medals and he has the Territorial medal on his medal card. 

 

Thanks for the information you've just added.  There's a good bit to go there.  Best, Tom

 

 

William Jones Williams 310070 - Soldiers and their units - Great War Forum

 

 

 

[Thomas Jones]

On 16/06/2020 at 18:54, Thomas Jones said:

I cannot find the record for Arthur Jones 20697

Hi all, Hope all's well! @Hywyn @clive_hughes @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr @Matlock1418 @Gunner 87

I've had a brilliant breakthrough finding the service record for Arthur Owen Jones 20697, or sort of anyway.   After Arthur's demobilisation in1920 from the 14th Btn. RWF, he enlisted back into the 241st battery, 61st Medium Bde. Royal Artillery in 1925.  This meant his WW1 service records were transferred with him. His service records were not blown up during WW2.  An entry on FMP that said they were saved with his RA service record and were now located with the National Archive for a new project called 'Defence Records Management Project'.  Great!!

In case anyone wanted to check if they have records there, their email address is modpersonnelaccessteam@nationalarchives.gov.uk , and the contact MOD Personnel Access Service Team.  They will check for free and if they find a serviceman will send you a quote for the records.  I applied and it cost me £25 for 16 pages.  Well worth it to me.   

The good news is there WAS ww1 info written included.  The bad news is, the actual pages had been disposed of in 1923 😐.   Couldn't believe it 😄!    Does the text under  'Former Service' mean anything to anyone?  The only line making sense to me is 'Receipt for 1914-15 Star'.

Any advice would be great, Best, Tom

[Thomas Jones]

 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/news/mod-records-project/ 

Edited 20 January , 2022 by Thomas Jones

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for that update.
So what Great War information did you actually get in your grandfather's file?

The use of the word 'disposal' doesn't necessarily equate to 'destruction' I don't think. Others may correct me, but disposal can mean transferring to another place. The word is often found on medal cards, where it can mean medals being sent out again to another address or another person.

Disposal by one department, to somebody else, not necessarily the pulpers?

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Thomas Jones said:

Hi all, Hope all's well! @Hywyn @clive_hughes @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr @Matlock1418 @Gunner 87

I've had a brilliant breakthrough finding the service record for Arthur Owen Jones 20697, or sort of anyway.   After Arthur's demobilisation in1920 from the 14th Btn. RWF, he enlisted back into the 241st battery, 61st Medium Bde. Royal Artillery in 1925.  This meant his WW1 service records were transferred with him. His service records were not blown up during WW2.  An entry on FMP that said they were saved with his RA service record and were now located with the National Archive for a new project called 'Defence Records Management Project'.  Great!!

In case anyone wanted to check if they have records there, their email address is modpersonnelaccessteam@nationalarchives.gov.uk , and the contact MOD Personnel Access Service Team.  They will check for free and if they find a serviceman will send you a quote for the records.  I applied and it cost me £25 for 16 pages.  Well worth it to me.   

The good news is there WAS ww1 info written included.  The bad news is, the actual pages had been disposed of in 1923 😐.   Couldn't believe it 😄!    Does the text under  'Former Service' mean anything to anyone?  The only line making sense to me is 'Receipt for 1914-15 Star'.

Any advice would be great, Best, Tom

If you cross reference the form numbers on the left with those on the right it shows that the file includes (or included) some relating to former (i.e. WW1) service and some relating to his subsequent TA service, e.g. no Army Form B 121 and 122 for TF service (ergo ‘struck through’), but instead those two forms exist for his WW1 service.  You really need a reference for what all those administrative forms were used for (each had a purpose) and I don’t know whether such a list still exists (or is readily available).  I suspect that @ss002d6252 (Craig) and @kenf48(Ken) might know.  There is a website that specialises in details and reproduction of such forms for reenactment (Tommyspackfillers), but I don’t know the extent of its scope.http://www.tommyspackfillers.com/docs.asp?Page=0

Edited 21 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Just to give you an example of typical Army forms here is a short list of just some of them:

 AFB256 Morning sick report; AFB115 Record of the declaration of a court of inquiry into the illegal absence of a soldier; AFB2118 War diary/intelligence summary; AFW 5192 HM Forces Overseas Customs label - Stores, Plant and tools requisition; AFC348 Memorandum; AFG998 report of lost or damaged equipment; AFG1025 WD Labels Large; AFG1024 WD Label small; AFB159A Certificate of use of Ball Ammo; AFL1387 Demand for maps and plans AFL1350 Supplementary Indent for books/forms; H1157 Soldiers clothing and equipment record.

Edited 21 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

58 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You really need a reference for what all those administrative forms were used for (each had a purpose) and I don’t know whether such a list still exists (or is readily available).

I can't add much but the GWF has made an ongoing attempt to list the Army Form on this thread

This is the most comprehensive list we have but there are other threads on specific forms.  I'm not as optimistic as Craig as to the definition of  'disposal' we know records were weeded.  I guess we need to find the WO instruction from 20.2.1923 referenced in the list.

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

I can't add much but the GWF has made an ongoing attempt to list the Army Form on this thread

This is the most comprehensive list we have but there are other threads on specific forms.  I'm not as optimistic as Craig as to the definition of  'disposal' we know records were weeded.  I guess we need to find the WO instruction from 20.2.1923 referenced in the list.

Thanks Ken, there must have been a war office register, or compendium listing the Army forms at one time, but God knows where it might be now.  I do recall that many were listed in King’s Regulations and others in the Manual - Administration in the Field.

The usage of the word “disposal” is quite archaic in the war office and its successor MOD and I think that it didn’t necessarily mean destruction or casting away.  It’s most common usage in my experience was to define what to do with something, or someone, with a whole range of options following on from that.  One especially common usage that I recall was on Daily Company Detail (orders for the day), or in a programme or syllabus, when it might say for various periods “OC’s Disposal”, meaning a flexible period with nothing set in concrete.  It was useful for inserting things like extra drill in an area requiring improvement, or to replace an earlier period affected by inclement weather.

Edited 21 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[ss002d6252]

In the TF 1908 regs, disposal was used in the context of 'doing something with it' rather than directly meaning 'destroyed' - the method of 'disposal' was of retention & then (ultimately) destruction, but it's clear in the usage that 'disposal' and 'destruction' weren't the same exact thing. That, of course, doesn't remove the fact that the method of 'disposal' with a particular record might have been to destroy it.

Craig

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

In the TF 1908 regs, disposal was used in the context of 'doing something with it' rather than directly meaning 'destroyed' - the method of 'disposal' was of retention & then (ultimately) destruction, but it's clear in the usage that 'disposal' and 'destruction' weren't the same exact thing. That, of course, doesn't remove the fact that the method of 'disposal' with a particular record might have been to destroy it.

Craig

Yes that’s my perception too.

[Thomas Jones]

thanks for the replies.  

3 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Thanks for that update.
So what Great War information did you actually get in your grandfather's file?

Thanks for the replies.  That page was the only Great War info in his file. 

I found this on the ForcesWarRecords for Arthur and I applied to the MOD for it, who said it's now in the Kew project:

I applied to Kew and this is their reply:

 

The surviving service record is attached:

Arthur Owen Jones post WW1 service record.pdf

I am chuffed to bits with it as I thought there was nothing other than an MIC and its pretty interesting for me seeing all this new info and that he went back into service from the 14th RWF to the 241batt. 61st Medium RA.

His eldest son Arthur (my taids father) joined the same regiment for before WW2 which became the 69th Medium, so there's lots of great info to find out what he did and also where he lived, 16 Club St. Hirael.  I was hoping the ww1 service record would be with this record but it may turn up... IF it did miss the ww2 bombs?  Disposal could be relocated rather than destroyed hopefully.

There was no mention from the MOD that they had any other docs for him other than what Kew have but I'll see what may turn up.

Thanks for your help with this.  

Edited 21 January , 2022 by Thomas Jones

[Thomas Jones]

It says the War office Walworth received the documents so I need to find out what they did with them.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

3 hours ago, Thomas Jones said:

Thanks for the replies.  That page was the only Great War info in his file.

Got it.

Club Street, Bangor. That's a new one on me. Whereabouts is it do you know?

Edit: Near the Mostyn Arms.

Edited 21 January , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

3 hours ago, Thomas Jones said:

It says the War office Walworth received the documents so I need to find out what they did with them.

I don't wish to be a pessimist, but if they were still there on the night of September 7th 1940, then they are probably lost...

[Thomas Jones]

38 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

they are probably lost...

yes I agree because the MOD probably would have found them as I gave them so much info. 

44 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Club Street, Bangor.

@Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Here's Club Street.  Demolished in the 70's but yes, the Mostyn Arms was on the corner of Club Street, just off Ambrose Street.   The old street sign hangs in the Mostyn Arms.

Willie Gordon Jones walking up Club Street 1976. He lived at 3 Fair view St.