12th battalion royal fusiliers

[Philip Wilson]

The original photograph measures 2.8 inches by 2 inches and this is an attempt to provide confirmation that the noticeboard reads as far as I can make out:

Orderly Room 12th Ry Fus's.

The photo is part of a run of photos taken in August 1915 at Pirbright and Chobham Common. There are no captions. The Bn War Diary confirms over the period 23rd August to 25th August 1915 - trench digging and practising assaulting trenches on the Common, which some of the photos clearly show.

Philip

[Guest lawfam]

I am currently trying to chase details of where my grandfather was injured in the first world war and have in my posession a medical officers diary from 6th January 1917 until 3rd May 1917. I believe it is of the 12th battalion of royal fusiliers who formed part of the 24th division. There are various names in there but if anyone would like me to email a copy as soon as I have finished typing it out please let me know. My grandfather was sgt slater who I know was injured by a bullet wound to the left lung and returned to Fazzakerly hospital before going over to Ireland. I would love to know where he was injured. Has anyone any ideas where I could find out - I don't even know the date.

I would love a copy of this if at all possible. My husband's grandfather, Bertram George Osborn No 5106 was in the 12 th Battalion of The Royal Fusiliers. He was promoted to Corporal 24 August 1916 but was injured and was back in England on 7 September 1916. I suspect that he must have been injured in The Battle of Delville Wood or The Battle of Guillmont but would be grateful of any further information.

Lawfam

[munday12]

Verity

I would be grateful for a copy of the Medical Officer diary. My husband's great grandfather was Pte John Risley (# 52779), who was killed on 10th Feb 1917. I am just starting out on my journey to find out about him, his experiences and how he died and any information held would be really useful.

Thanks

munday12

[munday12]

Verity,

I was very interested to read your posting (my thanks to Lee Bradbury for yet another timely prompt!). If it is not too much trouble, I would very much like to have a copy of the MO's diary. In return I can send you some information regarding the 12th Battalion Royal Fusiliers that could be of help to you.

I have drafted a book on the history of the unit. My father served in 12RF from its formation in 1914 through to its disbandment in February 1918 but, while he was the inspiration for the book, it is not about him - it is about all the men and their service in France and Belgium.

I have a considerable collection of papers, diaries, photographs, maps etc and I can send you copies where they may be relevant to Sgt Slater's service with the unit. I have the War Diary on disc - and so can send you excerpts either as images of the original, or as text. I can certainly give you their day-by-day diary during the period that interests you. I also have other records for the same months in 1917.

If you send me your grandfather's first names I shall look for him in my records - but I regret to say that the chances of finding a trace are slim. I can confirm that the name Slater does not appear in the War Diary, but this is not unusual. I do, however, have several other documents and lists that I can search.

Returning to the MO, I wonder if you could you let me know his name. The Battalion MO from the 7th October 1916 to 9th June 1917 was a Capt. C. A. Whittingham RAMC. He was mortally wounded on the 9th June soon after the start of the Battle of Messines and died at midnight. I have much info about this brave officer.

If you e-mail me with your own e-mail address and as much information as possible about Sgt Slater, I'll be able to send you some papers. I look forward to hearing from you.

Barry

Barry

I would be really interested in any information you may have re Pte John Risley, who died on 10th Feb 1917, although his grandson believes he was killed at the Somme - I am not sure if he could have been wounded and survived for some time. I believe you have tried to send me a message, but I am a new member and am unable to retrieve/send personal message

Thanks

Lisa

[BarryF]

Barry

I would be really interested in any information you may have re Pte John Risley, who died on 10th Feb 1917, although his grandson believes he was killed at the Somme - I am not sure if he could have been wounded and survived for some time. I believe you have tried to send me a message, but I am a new member and am unable to retrieve/send personal message

Thanks

Lisa

HI Lisa,

If you send me an email at barry@12rf.org I'll be able to send you info and images. Meanwhile I can confirm that John Risley was one of three men killed on that very cold Saturday in February 1917. He was killed in the trenches just outside, and to the north east of, Loos (I can send images and maps). The War Diary reports "Enemy very active with Minnies and Pineapples all day. Heavy hostile shelling by enemy in the early hours of the morning." And so I think we can conclude that he was killed by mortar or shellfire while in the trenches.

The three fusiliers who were killed together were buried together, side by side. The seven 12RF in the image are, L to R, Arthur Davies (Died of Wounds aged 20, 13 Feb), Charles Baker (Killed in Action, aged 20, 12 Feb), William Offley (KIlled in Action aged 31, 10 Feb), Ernest Phripp (Killed in Action aged 19, 10 Feb), John Risley (Killed in Action aged 29, 10 Feb), Frederick Brockwell Killed in Action 8 Feb), and Thomas Driver (Killed in Action aged 33, 8 Feb). This is a low resolution image because of upload constraints on this Forum - I will send you high defintion copies by email if you want them.

John Risley arrived in France for the first time on the 9th December 1916 when he was taaken on the strength of 26RF (before that, in the UK, he was in the Middlesex Regiment). He was transferred to 12RF on the 12th December 1916 and was killed in the trenches just two months later.

Referring to your post, I can confirm that he did not serve on the Somme - 12RF were in this same Loos area throughout his time with them. Also, he was killed in action and did not die of wounds at a later day.

I hope this helps - email me if you want any images etc.

Barry

[munday12]

HI Lisa,

If you send me an email at barry@12rf.org I'll be able to send you info and images. Meanwhile I can confirm that John Risley was one of three men killed on that very cold Saturday in February 1917. He was killed in the trenches just outside, and to the north east of, Loos (I can send images and maps). The War Diary reports "Enemy very active with Minnies and Pineapples all day. Heavy hostile shelling by enemy in the early hours of the morning." And so I think we can conclude that he was killed by mortar or shellfire while in the trenches.

The three fusiliers who were killed together were buried together, side by side. The seven 12RF in the image are, L to R, Arthur Davies (Died of Wounds aged 20, 13 Feb), Charles Baker (Killed in Action, aged 20, 12 Feb), William Offley (KIlled in Action aged 31, 10 Feb), Ernest Phripp (Killed in Action aged 19, 10 Feb), John Risley (Killed in Action aged 29, 10 Feb), Frederick Brockwell Killed in Action 8 Feb), and Thomas Driver (Killed in Action aged 33, 8 Feb). This is a low resolution image because of upload constraints on this Forum - I will send you high defintion copies by email if you want them.

John Risley arrived in France for the first time on the 9th December 1916 when he was taaken on the strength of 26RF (before that, in the UK, he was in the Middlesex Regiment). He was transferred to 12RF on the 12th December 1916 and was killed in the trenches just two months later.

Referring to your post, I can confirm that he did not serve on the Somme - 12RF were in this same Loos area throughout his time with them. Also, he was killed in action and did not die of wounds at a later day.

I hope this helps - email me if you want any images etc.

Barry

Hi Barry

Thanks so much for the information; these stories are all so desperately sad, but I know his grandson (my father in law) will be really happy to have information about him, as very little was known and the family just didnt talk about it.. Any photos or maps you have will be very gratefully received & I will send you an email.

Thanks again

Lisa

[munday12]

Another question for you Barry....what would have been the rationale for moving troops between battalions? was it just to make up the numbers? Apologies if the question seems niave, but I am very ignorant of military matters!!!

Lisa

[BarryF]

Another question for you Barry....what would have been the rationale for moving troops between battalions? was it just to make up the numbers?

Hi Lisa,

John Risley followed the usual path for the vast majority of new drafts arriving from the UK. New drafts were required as the war claimed its toll. For the most part it was an organised rather than ad hoc operation. 12RF received regular drafts from their RF reserve/training units in the UK, from the UK-based 3rd (Reserve) Bn Northants Regt, and from RF units in France such as 26RF (the Bankers Battalion).

A typical pre-war infantry battalion full War Establishment would be about 1,100 officers and men, but that number was seldom, if ever, achieved during the war. 800 might be a maximum with 5-600 being an average. So new drafts were constantly sent from the UK.

12RF initially sent about 800 men to France in September 1915. During the course of the war, a further 2,050 were drafted into the Battalion primarily to replace casualties. So some 2,850 men served with 12RF on the Western Front at some time or other. 847 did not survive.

As far as John Risley is concerned, he arrived in France on the 9th December in a large draft from the UK. Those UK arrivals were posted to units in France, usually preceded by a week or two only of training. John Risley and a number of the UK arrivals were first taken on the strength of 26RF on the 9^th December 1916. 31 of them from 26RF, including your relative, were then allocated to 12RF and taken on Battalion strength on the 13 December. They then spent a week in a training camp before arriving at 12RF lines in Mazingarbe, near Loos, on the 20^th December (12RF received a total draft of 75 that day). Almost immediately he would have been sent to the 14 Bis trenches. A pattern that many WW1 drafts would recognise.

Of those 31 men who arrived at 12RF with John Risley from 26RF, 12 did not survive the war. Many more were wounded.

Barry

[toofatfortakeoff]

I believe it is of the 12th battalion of royal fusiliers who formed part of the 24th division. There are various names in there but if anyone would like me to email a copy as soon as I have finished typing it out please let me know.

If you have the entries from January to April or more precisely in relation to Walter Brown 5080 Private 12 RF I would be glad to hear from you cheers!

[Chris]

Sean

Not much help to your question, but interesting that Walter would almost certainly have been involved in the fighting at the HR on 26th - 29th September 1915 two weeks prior to the involvement on the same battlefield of so many men he must have now from North Lincolnshire. His house, or that of his father, at 63 Mary Street still exists and i walk past it most days. Its opposite the Pay and Display carpark. Will have to delve in files but nearly sure i have a pic of his headstone somewhere

Chris

[toofatfortakeoff]

Thanks Chris Im not far fro mthere myself work wise-we must have a chinwag some time- id'd more Barton men.

[Guest Jon K]

My wife's great uncle was Pte James Smith (10073) who died on Christmas day 1916. He appears to have been the only fatality on the day and we are trying to find out any details of the circumstances. Also are there any good sources for the history of of 12th RF up to this time. We are planning to visit Philosophe cemetery where he is buried.

Many thanks

Jon

[Philip Wilson]

Jon - I have a transcript of the 12th Bn War Diary - it reads:

On the Dec 22. 1916 ( a very wet day) the 12th Bn was relieved by 1st R.F. and proceeded to Brigade Reserve Village Line.

Village Line Dec 23. Wet and boisterous.

Village Line Dec 24. Wet. Enemy fired a number of Gas shells.

Village line Dec 25. Very windy but fine. Casualties killed 1 O.R.

Village line Dec 26. Fine. Enemy shelled with Gas shells.

The Bn remained in Brigade Reserve until Dec.28 when it relieved 1st R.F. in the trenches.

My grandfather Captain J.V.Wilson served with 12th Royal Fusiliers - he contributed to the various accounts re 12th Bn R.F. in O'Neill's book The Royal Fusiliers in the Great War.

[webbyg]

I am interested in the photos of Chobham Common that started this thread . Any idea where they come from and how I can view them, please?

Graham

[Bob Walker]

On 2/18/2005 at 6:08 PM, Guest Verity said:

I am currently trying to chase details of where my grandfather was injured in the first world war and have in my posession a medical officers diary from 6th January 1917 until 3rd May 1917. I believe it is of the 12th battalion of royal fusiliers who formed part of the 24th division. There are various names in there but if anyone would like me to email a copy as soon as I have finished typing it out please let me know. My grandfather was sgt slater who I know was injured by a bullet wound to the left lung and returned to Fazzakerly hospital before going over to Ireland. I would love to know where he was injured. Has anyone any ideas where I could find out - I don't even know the date.

Hi. 

This could be very useful to me...my great uncle Jack Walker was wounded with 12th Royal Fusiliers  in March 1917. If you are still monitoring these posts (I know it's from a long time ago) I'd be very interested in this. 

[Guest]

I'm very late joining this thread, but I hope someone will have some information.  My grandfather, Fred Downward, was a private in the RF.  His service record was destroyed in the Blitz and it has taken years of research to narrow his service down to 12 Btn for the critical points of his service.  At some point, he was transferred from 19 Btn, but as I am unlikely to find out when that was, I have only assumed he was in 12 Btn for his last 6 months fighting, Jan-Jul 1917.  I'm fairly certain he was injured at Hill 60 on 23 June 1917.

Last week, I visited Hill 60 for the first time, but there is no longer a museum there.  I was hoping to find reports (other than those in the Btn War Diaries, which I have read for that period) of what happened and also any maps, pictures or other information about the service of that battalion during the first half of 1917.

At some point, he was awarded an MM, mentioned in the war diary on 30 March 1917, but of course, that was probably not the day he earned it.  My research has disproved family versions of how he earned the medal, and how he was injured, and I never give up hope of finding out the exact course of events.

Any information would be much appreciated.

[EastSurrey]

You might look at the Brigade and Division war diaries via the National Archives - 12th R.F. was in 17th Brigade, 24th Division during 1917. The Division had been lightly engaged at Messines on 7 June, but had quite heavy casualties, especially from German artillery, holding the line after the battle. (My great uncle was wounded on 27 June with  9th E.Surrey, 72nd Brigade, 24th Division.)

Besides those sources, it's a matter of trying to find personal accounts and photos. There may be some in the regimental museum or the Imperial War Museum.

Michael

[Jools Mc]

Greetings to all, and especially Barry F, whose knowledge of the Battalion and its history is of great importance and interest to me personally. I would appreciate if anyone could provide further information or copies of photographs of my great-great uncle, Lieut.-Colonel Harold Compton, who was the CO of the 12th Battalion during the Vimy and Messines actions, until he was fatally wounded on June 9th, 1917. 

 

Although I realise much of what I have found out will already be well known by Barry F and others, for what it's worth, I include the following information on Harold Compton and the circumstances surrounding his death in 1917. I hope it is of some use in providing further insight.

 

Harold Compton had originally been commisioned as a Lieutenant in the 3rd Battalion Royal Fusiliers on 3 March, 1894, and was stationed in Karachi and Bombay. He then served as a Captain in the 'South African War, 1900-1', and took part in the relief of Ladysmith. He was severely wounded in August 1900 and was mentioned in Despatches in the London Gazette on 7 May, 1901, and again on 15 June, 1916, receiving the Queen's Medal with 4 clasps. He was appointed Major in 1903.

On the outbreak of the Great War he was recalled to the 12th Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regt.)

 

The following is an account of the actions of the 12th Battalion and the 24th Division between 1915 and 1917, taken from a biography of Harold Compton and his brother, Charles William Compton, who had served as a Lieut.-Colonel of Prince Albert's (Somerset Light Infantry) Regiment, and then as a Brigadier-General in the 111th Brigade, 37th Division (at one point they commanded their battalions only five miles apart). It includes the circumstances of Lieut.-Colonel Compton's death, alongside Captain Gordon, Captain J.V. Wilson, and Captain Whittingham (R.A.M.C.):

 

"On the outbreak of the Great War, Harold Compton was recalled to the 12th Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment), which was formed at Hounslow and moved to the Aldershot training area in June, 1915, becoming part of the 24th Division of the New Army. It was inspected by Field Marshal Lord Kitchiner on 19th August, and by HM The King on the 20th. Orders for the Division to move to France were received on 21st August, and troops, probably accompanied by Major Compton, were concentrated between St Pol and Etaples by 4th September. The 24th Division was not given the usual months of trench warfare training and gradual initiation into active service conditions, and within three weeks of arriving in France it was involved in a major offensive.

It was in response to a strongly pressed request from the French that the Commander-in-Chief of the British Expeditionary Force, Field Marshal Sir John French, agreed to the First Army launching an attack on the German positions around the coal-mining town of Loos, this to coincide with a French attack on a neighbouring sector. Responsibility fell on General Sir Douglas Haig to formulate suitable plans for the first British offensive since the outbreak of the war and to give effect to them. This he did by committing some 75,000 men to the action, despite his having very serious reservations about the suitability of the open landscape for the operation and the lack of munitions. At the same time he requested GHQ to allow the 21st and 24th Divisions comprising some 20,000 men to be placed in reserve to follow up the initial attack from which heavy casualties could be expected. In the event, the 24th Division was released for the operation only four days before the scheduled engagement and was forced to make night marches in persistent rain and appalling traffic conditions over 56 kilometers from St Omer to be in position in time. The natural consequence was that when the reserves arrived in the morning the battle began, they were tired, hungry and dispirited, and in no condition to fight.

Before opening its attack in the early hours of 25th September 1915, the main British force used gas for the first time in the war, but this was only partially successful as there was little wind and some gas blew back over the British lines. The subsequent actions on the field were some of the bloodiest of the war, and by the end of the day the British had lost 15,000 men killed or wounded in breaking through the first line of German defence. Haig regarded this as a tactical success, though minimal ground had been gained up to the second line of German defence. Progress had been slow, and due to some misunderstanding caused by poor communications, the reserves - doubtless grateful for their day's rest - were not brought into action until the following day, by which time the Germans had reinforced their defences. As a consequence, not only did the mainly young and totally inexperienced reserves of the 21st and 24th Divisions have to advance over no-mans-land littered with dead bodies, but they too were slaughtered by merciless machine-gun fire as they approached the thick barbed-wire fence, 7 metres wide and 3 metres high, in front of the second German line. In one situation, the Germans compassionately stopped firing so that stretcher bearers could remove the wounded. It was calculated that the reserves lost a further 8,000 killed or wounded on 26th September, twice the proportion of those engaged on the previous day. For detailed accounts of the Loos battle the reader is referred to The Death of Glory by Robin Neillands (John Murray, 2006), or Stalemate by J.H. Johnson (Arms and Armour, 1995), though neither mentions Harold Compton, who clearly was lucky to come through unscathed.

In February 1916 the 24th Division was in action again near Hooge, and in March was sent to the Wulverghem sector, near Messines, where it was subjected to large-scale gas attacks. In August the Division moved south for the Somme offensive and fought at Delville Wood from 11 August to 2 September, then for three days at Guillemont where it was responsible for putting up a smoke barrage.

In April 1917 the Division fought at Givenchy alongside the Canadians who took Vimy Ridge. However, the Battle of Messines Ridge in June was a turning point in the war as all previous attempts to break the stalemate of trench warfare had either failed or had limited success. In this successful action, presaged by the detonation on 7 June of 19 massive mines under the German defences, the 24th Division was held in reserve to follow up the initial phase of the attack and to assault the second line of German defence at Oosttaverne. When that time came, swift progress was made, as Passingham has described:

 

"Sweeping across no man's land, 17th Brigade (including the 12th Battalion of Royal Fusiliers) easily captured their part of the objective, including Bug and Rose Woods. The German defence had crumbled with barely a shot fired by the enemy. The northern sector of the Oosttaverne Line was festooned with pillboxes and other strongpoints, but they were occupied by British troops in quick time. The scale of success in this sector alone was reflected by the fact that the two leading battalions of 17th Brigade had a total of 6 casualties between them over an average of 800 yd down the slope of the Roozebeek valley, where they were exposed to possible enfilade fire from the Oosttaverne Line. None came, and the enemy surrendered in droves, with 289 Germans and six 77mm field guuns being taken, as well as a score of machine-guns."

 

What happened to the Royal Fusiliers including Harold Compton on the day is recorded in the history of the regiment:

 

"The final position was gained early, and at 4.30 p.m. the companies reported all objectives attained and that they were in touch with the Battalions on their flanks. The line extended from the point where the Roozebeek cut Odyssey Trench to within a few yards of the road running north-east of Oosttaverne. At this point the position lay some 500 yards north-east of the hamlet.  The 1st Battalion in this battle took 130 men of the 150th Prussian Regiment prisoners, with a machine and two field guns, for the loss of 5 officers and 110 other ranks.

"When the 1st Battalion were consolidating the advanced positions, the 12th moved up to the old front line and before midnight went forward to the Dammstrasse near Hiele Farm. From this position they took rations and supplies to the 1st Battalion and the 3rd Rifle Brigade in the front line. At 9.30 p.m. on June 9th they moved forward to relieve the front line about the Roozebeek stream. The battalion headquarters were established in Oosttaverne Wood, near the Wambeck road; and it was close to this place that the battalion suffered a very searching blow. They were destined to take part in rounding off the battle and yet at one stroke they lost four of their chief officers. A shell fell close to headquarters, catching Lieut.-Colonel Compton, Captain Gordon, Captain J.V. Wilson and Captain Whittingham (R.A.M.C.), and wounding them. Captains Gordon and Whittingham died at midnight. Lieut.-Colonel Compton lingered till July 7th, when he too succumbed."

 

One could very well consider that Harold Compton had thus become another victim of enemy action, yet there is another aspect of this particular battle that should be borne in mind and which could throw a different light on his death. It concerned the aftermath of the initial success, which Passingham describes as follows:

 

"Perhaps the most unfortunate oversight in the overall plan for Messines was of the later control of the artillery by the troops of divisions consolidating their hold on the Messines-Wytschaete Ridge and those in reserve divisions responsible for capturing the Oosttaverne Line.........The second-phase divisions were by now taking control of the Oosttaverne Line. Therefore, 24th, 11th, and 4th Australian Divisions were controlled separately from those now holding the Messines-Wytschaete Ridge. To make matters worse, the artillery observers of the ridge-line divisions were out of contact with the divisions forward......(and)...brought down fire on the 'friendly' units and their troops in front of them........The problem would take almost 48 hours to resolve."

 

Although it seems likely that, because of his seniority, Harold Compton was aware of the problem and had taken steps to avoid being caught by these mistakes on 7 and 8 June, he may have assumed that they had been resolved by 9 June when his HQ moved into the Oosttaverne Wood. Nevertheless, it will never be known whether his death was an accident or the result of a German counter offensive.

 

 

Edited 15 February , 2020 by Jools Mc
correcting typo

[leahmerrett]

can i please jump on this thread. My great grandfather is William James Thomas, from the 12th Battalion. a Sgt and then a 2/Lt. he survived. is he mentioned on anyones research? many thanks