Gada de Guivry Posted 15 June , 2020 Share Posted 15 June , 2020 (edited) De janvier à mars 1918, l'armée anglaise s'installe dans mon village de Guivry (France - Aisne) en bordure des départements de la Somme et de l'Oise. Pourriez-vous m'aider à trouver les régiments stationnés à Guivry, peut-être des documents ou des photographies? Merci beaucoup pour votre aide. Gada de Guivry Edited 15 June , 2020 by Gada de Guivry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gada de Guivry Posted 15 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltea Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 Hi Gada I know little of what units may have been stationed in Guivry January - March 1918, but I have some information which may assist. The Great War Diaries (WO95 series), held by the National Archives, has this information. Free downloads are available while Covid19 lasts! III Corps took up its position south of St Quentin from about late-January 1918. Its defence area included Guivry. When the Germans attacked on 21/3/18 the Corps was made up of three divisions – from north to south, the 14th, 18th and 58th (apologies if you already know most of this). The files which I would recommend you read: III Corps: WO95/ 678/1…….Jan 1918 678/2…….Feb 18 678/3…….Mar 18 678/4…….Mar 18 14th Division 1874/1……Jan 18 1874/2……Feb 18 1874/3……Mar 18 1874/4……Mar 18 1883/4……Jan/Mar 18 (Artillery) 18th Division 2017/1……Jan – Mar 18 2021/2&3…Jan- Mar 18 (Artillery) 58th Division 2988/1……Jan 18 2988/2……Feb 18 2988/3……Mar 18 (The above files are mainly for the HQ aspects of each unit. There are other files for brigades, battalions, etc., which may have more detail). I’ve had a quick look at the above files. Guivry is mentioned several times, but mainly as a line on the retreat route of the 14th and 18th Divisions on 21 – 24/3/18. The only reference I can find to a military unit being stationed in Guivry occurs in file WO95/1874/2-2 (14th Division, HQ General Staff, February 1918, page 32): “III Corps G.O. 7851, 14 Feb 1918, …….18th Division artillery to move to GUIVRY and NEUVILLE-EN-BEINE. At the same time the 298th Army Brigade RFA to leave GUIVRY.” I hope the above helps. The files mentioned above may contain more references to Guivry. Bill T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 Hi Gada, It was the British Army rather than the English army! C'était l'armée britannique plutôt que l'armée anglaise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 I think there is one point to learn, that of Infantry Battalions and Artillery Brigades. The entire artillery arm of the British Army is the regiment of Royal Artillery, with its three subdivisions into Royal Field Artillery, Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Garrison Artillery. Batteries of artillery would be grouped into brigades, and I believe this would be similar in composition to that of a <<Régiment d'Artillerie>> in the Armée Française. As I understand it, all of the battalions of a <<Régiment d'Infanterie>> would deploy together. This did not happen for the British. Various battalions were grouped in brigades. If you want to know more about a battalion, you have to know the brigade. The brigades have their "war diary" (<<J.M.O.>>) and they are in the WO 95 series of The National Archives UK. It is possible to register with the National Archives, and to download a maximum of 50 files per month. Just like the J.M.O. that I have seen, these are images of handwritten passages of text. In the same manner that there are the diaries for the battalions, you will find similar for the artillery brigades. As I understand it, you already have mention of battalions and brigades from the prior posts you have made on this forum. If you focus on this, and not regiments, I think you will find the information you desire from the various war diaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 Here is the link to the diary of 54th Infantry Brigade, and specifically 7th Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment. Archive reference WO 95/2043/7https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053900 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 Third Army. War Diaries for five artillery units, including '66 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery May 1917-Mar 1919' Archive reference: WO 95/395/2 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/8dc5de82200f47f38d4e94649fc81892 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said: Here is the link to the diary of 54th Infantry Brigade, and specifically 7th Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment. Archive reference WO 95/2043/7https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053900 The 7th Bedfords War Diary has also been transcribed and the relevant period can be read here http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/7thbn/7thbtn1918diary.html There is only one mention of Guivry and thats on the 24th March 1918 when a heavy attack is stated to have taken place on Guivry on their left. The 18th Division Artillery were the LXXXII Brigade, RFA and the LXXXIII Brigade, RFA. There would also be War Diaries for the 54th, 55th & 56th Field Ambulances who might be expected to be a little behind the front as well as the 18th Divisional Signals Company, https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/18th-eastern-division/ The Divisional History, "The 18th Division in the Great War" by G.H.F. Nichols makes two references to Guivry. Pages 290 – 291 23rd March 1918. The 53rd Brigade bivouaced for the night in Commenshon, and the 54th in Callouel, leaving the front to be held by the three regiments of Cuirassiers of the 1st French Cavalry Division, along a line which may be approximately indicated as connecting Noureuil, Athiemont, and Caisnel. At 11 o’clock that night Divisional Headquarters were moved back to Caillouel. Some idea of the fighting that the Division had gone through will be gained from the fact that at the close of the day the 11th Royal Fusiliers could only muster 2 officers and 250 other ranks, while the Northamptonshires and Bedfordshires each numbered about 6 officers and 200 other ranks. The only guns lost on the 23rd were those of the 410th Battery, which was absolutely smashed up by shell fire…….. Fron noon 22nd March to noon 23rd March, 37 officers and 1,150 other ranks passed through the 18th Division’s Casualty Clearing Station, which had been established at Les Hezetts, one mile north-east of Guivry. Of these 12 officers and 420 other ranks belonged to the 18th Division. Page 292. At Les Hezettes on the 23rd the main road became congested with retiring transport, and at one tine there were 70 stretcher and 300 walking cases awaiting evacuation by way of Babouef. Four aeroplanes came over and machine-gunned them as they lay there. Page 295 24th March 1918. The Germans were slowly and surely coming on. During the afternoon they worked up through Commencon, Bethancourt, and Rue de Vignes. Later, Caillouel began to be heavily shelled, and at 6.15 p.m., a strong enemy attack, covered by heavy machine gun fire, succeeded in driving the French out of Guivry. Beaugies was still held by our allies, but after dark, officer patrols sent out to ascertain the exact position on our left, reported on their return that the Germans were in the north edge of the village, and the French were withdrawing in the direction of Maucourt. At 10 P.M. the fall of Beaugies was definite, and the situation on our left became critical, as the enemy were now only a short march from the Apilly-Grandru-Maucourt road. Once there they would be in a position to envelop the whole of our line. (It then goes on to talk about the withdrawal including that of the 82nd (LXXXII) Brigade of the RFA while covering fire for the Division was provided by the 83rd (LXXXIII) Brigade.) On page 254 it is noted that the 18th Division had only moved to the sector in early March, having come from the Ypres salient. “The 58th Division, the British Division nearest the French, was on our right, and the 14th Division on our left.” Hope that helps, ( and google translate makes sense of it all!) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gada de Guivry Posted 26 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2020 Hello Bill, Thanks to you, I will be able to go further in our research. I'll go look in the archives and show you the progress of our story. LGDG On 25/06/2020 at 14:51, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Salut Gada, C'était l'armée britannique plutôt que l'armée anglaise! C'était l'armée britannique plutôt que l'armée anglaise! Hello, It is indeed a language error. We are correcting. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gada de Guivry Posted 26 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2020 On 25/06/2020 at 16:15, Keith_history_buff said: Voici le lien vers le journal de la 54th Infantry Brigade, et plus précisément du 7th Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment. Référence d'archive WO 95/2043/7 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053900 Hello Keith and thank you, We have seen the files and are studying them. We will come back to give you the information found. It would be utopian to find photos of British soldiers in Guivry. Maybe one day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gada de Guivry Posted 26 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2020 23 hours ago, PRC said: Le 7th Bedfords War Diary a également été transcrit et la période pertinente peut être consultée ici http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/7thbn/7thbtn1918diary.html Il n'y a qu'une seule mention de Guivry et c'est le 24 mars 1918 qu'une attaque lourde aurait eu lieu sur Guivry sur leur gauche. L'artillerie de la 18e division était la brigade LXXXII, RFA et la brigade LXXXIII, RFA. Il y aurait également des journaux de guerre pour les 54e, 55e et 56e ambulances de campagne qui pourraient être un peu derrière le front ainsi que la 18e Divisional Signals Company, https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order -de-bataille-de-divisions / 18ème-division-est / L'histoire divisionnaire, «La 18e division de la Grande Guerre» par GHF Nichols fait deux références à Guivry. Pages 290 à 291 23 mars 1918. La 53e brigade bivouaqua pour la nuit à Commenshon, et la 54e à Callouel, laissant le front aux mains des trois régiments de cuirassiers de la 1re division de cavalerie française, le long d'une ligne qui pourrait être approximativement indiquée comme reliant Noureuil, Athiemont et Caisnel. Cette nuit-là, à 11 heures, le quartier général divisionnaire est ramené à Caillouel. Une idée des combats que la Division a traversés sera acquise du fait qu'à la fin de la journée, les 11e Royal Fusiliers ne pouvaient rassembler que 2 officiers et 250 autres grades, tandis que les Northamptonshires et Bedfordshires comptaient chacun environ 6 officiers et 200 officiers. d'autres rangs. Les seuls canons perdus le 23 étaient ceux de la 410e batterie, qui a été complètement détruite par des tirs d'obus …… .. Du 22 mars au midi 23 mars, 37 officiers et 1 150 autres grades sont passés par le poste de compensation des blessés de la 18e division, qui avait été établi aux Hezetts, à un mile au nord-est de Guivry . De ces 12 officiers et 420 autres grades appartenaient à la 18e division. Page 292. Aux Hezettes, le 23, la route principale est devenue encombrée par le retrait des transports, et à une dent, 70 civières et 300 caisses de marche attendaient d'être évacuées par Babouef. Quatre avions sont venus et les ont mitraillés alors qu'ils gisaient là. Épisode 295 24 mars 1918. Les Allemands arrivaient lentement et sûrement. Au cours de l'après-midi, ils ont travaillé à Commencon, Bethancourt et Rue de Vignes. Plus tard, Caillouel a commencé à être lourdement bombardé, et à 18 h 15, une forte attaque ennemie, couverte par des tirs de mitrailleuses lourdes, a réussi à chasser les Français de Guivry . Des alliés étaient toujours détenus par nos alliés, mais après la tombée de la nuit, des patrouilles d'officiers envoyèrent vérifier la position exacte sur notre gauche, signalèrent à leur retour que les Allemands se trouvaient au nord du village et que les Français se retiraient en direction de Maucourt. À 22 h, la chute des Beaugies est définitive et la situation sur notre gauche devient critique, l'ennemi n'étant plus qu'à une courte marche de la route Apilly-Grandru-Maucourt. Une fois sur place, ils seraient en mesure d'envelopper toute notre ligne. (Il continue ensuite à parler du retrait, y compris celui de la 82e (LXXXII) brigade de la RFA, tandis que le feu pour la division a été fourni par la 83e (LXXXIII) brigade.) À la page 254, il est à noter que la 18e division n'avait déménagé dans le secteur qu'au début de mars, en provenance du saillant d'Ypres. «La 58e division, la division britannique la plus proche des Français, était à notre droite et la 14e division à notre gauche.» J'espère que cela aide (et google translate a du sens!) Peter Hello Peter, Thank you for all those informations. We must now work and study the new avenues. Many thanks. LGDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 14 minutes ago, Gada de Guivry said: Hello Keith and thank you, We have seen the files and are studying them. We will come back to give you the information found. It would be utopian to find photos of British soldiers in Guivry. Maybe one day... Thank you for your feedback. The manner in which the British Army was administered is considerably different to that of l'Armée française. I thought it prudent to mention how it is different, both here in english on this forum, et aussi, soit en français, sur le forum Pages14-18, car c'est important pour des francophones néophytes de bien comprendre le façon de l'organisation du British Army. I did perform a search among the IWM Collections, but unfortunately nothing came up from their photo archive.This is a pity, because in some instances a search based on the village name does show results, but not in this instance. No results for Guivryhttps://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=guivry&pageSize=&media-records=all-records Many results for Wailly, including my favourite photo of trench raidershttps://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=Wailly&pageSize=30&media-records=all-records If you have any difficulty in finding the "War Diary" for a specific Artillery Brigade or Infantry Battalion, please ask. Best wishes Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 On 25/06/2020 at 12:36, Biltea said: WO95/1874/2-2 (14th Division, HQ General Staff, February 1918, page 32): “III Corps G.O. 7851, 14 Feb 1918, …….18th Division artillery to move to GUIVRY and NEUVILLE-EN-BEINE. At the same time the 298th Army Brigade RFA to leave GUIVRY.” I hope the above helps. The files mentioned above may contain more references to Guivry. Bill T On 01/08/2014 at 18:42, rflory said: 298th Brigade RFA from 28 February 1918 to 30 March 1918 was attached to the 14th Division in III Corps. Regards, Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 On 20/01/2018 at 01:41, Drew-1918 said: I stand to be corrected, but I don't think the London Regiment Royal Fusiliers ever wore the 'T-London' title. This might at least exclude the 173rd Brigade, leaving us with the 174th and 175th Brigades as the 'only' options. That would reduce it to six possibilities. Not that this narrows it a lot. For the benefit of Gada, one of the following: 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 2/10th or 12th Battalion London Regiment. Chris List of the battalion diaries for 174th Infantry Brigadehttps://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C7355115 List of the battalion diaries for 175th Infantry Brigade https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/C7355123 174th Infantry Brigade: Headquartershttps://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14056085 175th Infantry Brigade: Headquartershttps://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/C14056089 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 26 June , 2020 Share Posted 26 June , 2020 Gada, If you sign up for Ancestry.co.uk you can search war diaries for locations. A search for Guivry highlights a list of potential units and you can look up the appropriate war diaries. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60779/?keyword=guivry. Most mentions are for March 1918. I hope this helps. Colin Gada, Si vous vous inscrivez sur Ancestry.co.uk, vous pouvez rechercher des journaux de guerre pour les emplacements. Une recherche de Guivry met en évidence une liste d'unités potentielles et vous pouvez rechercher les journaux de guerre appropriés. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60779/?keyword=guivry. La plupart des mentions concernent le mois de mars 1918. J'espère que ça aide. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gada de Guivry Posted 28 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2020 On 26/06/2020 at 20:49, Colin W Taylor said: Gada, Si vous vous inscrivez à Ancestry.co.uk, vous pouvez rechercher des journaux de guerre pour les emplacements. Une recherche de Guivry met en évidence une liste d'unités potentielles et vous pouvez rechercher les journaux de guerre appropriés. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60779/?keyword=guivry . La plupart des mentions concernent mars 1918. J'espère que ça aide. Colin Hello Colin, Thank you very much for this research. The cost is too high for me right now but I will try to find someone who could go to Ancestry for me and download these documents. Thanks again ! Le 26/06/2020 à 20:12, Keith_history_buff a déclaré: Liste des journaux du bataillon de la 174e brigade d'infanterie https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C7355115Liste des journaux du bataillon de la 175e brigade d'infanterie https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/C7355123 174e brigade d'infanterie: quartier général https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14056085 175e brigade d'infanterie: quartier général https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/C14056089 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gada de Guivry Posted 28 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2020 On 26/06/2020 at 20:12, Keith_history_buff said: Liste des journaux du bataillon de la 174th Infantry Brigade https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C7355115Liste des journaux du bataillon de la 175th Infantry Brigade https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/C7355123 174e brigade d'infanterie: quartier général https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14056085 175e brigade d'infanterie: quartier général https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/C14056089 Hello Keith, Thank you for your research work and your explanations on the functioning of the British army. I downloaded all of the documents and started reading them. Lots of finds concerning my village of Guivry. Thanks again ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 Hi Gada, Thank you for your reply, I am glad to hear that you are making good progress with your research. The method that Colin has suggested is excellent, he is a genius! The results will give you the reference from WO 95. I did not realise that some of the diaries had some transcription. Every day is a school day. Thanks Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gada de Guivry Posted 28 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2020 On 25/06/2020 at 13:36, Biltea said: Salut Gada Je sais peu de choses sur les unités qui ont été stationnées à Guivry de janvier à mars 1918, mais j'ai quelques informations qui peuvent aider. The Great War Diaries (Série WO95), détenu par les Archives nationales, possède cette information. Libre les téléchargements sont disponibles pendant la durée de Covid19! Le III Corps prend ses fonctions au sud de St Quentin vers la fin janvier 1918. Sa zone de défense comprenait Guivry. Quand les Allemands ont attaqué le 21/3/18 le Corps était composé de trois divisions - du nord au sud, la 14 e , 18 e et 58 e (excuses si vous en savez déjà beaucoup). Les fichiers que je vous recommande de lire: III Corps: WO95 / 678/1 …… .Jan 1918 678/2 …… .Feb 18 678/3 …… .Mar 18 678/4 …… .Mar 18 14 e division 1874/1 …… 18 janv. 1874/2 …… 18 février 1874/3 …… 18 mars 1874/4 …… 18 mars 1883/4 …… 18 janvier / 18 mars (Artillerie) 18 e division 2017/1 …… Jan - 18 mars 2021/2 & 3… Jan- 18 mars (Artillerie) 58 e division 2988/1 …… 18 janv. 2988/2 …… 18 février 2988/3 …… 18 mars (Les fichiers ci-dessus concernent principalement les aspects HQ de chaque unité. Il existe dossiers des brigades, bataillons, etc., qui peuvent avoir plus de détails). J'ai jeté un coup d'œil aux fichiers ci-dessus. Guivry est mentionné plusieurs fois, mais principalement comme ligne sur le chemin de retraite des 14 e et 18 e divisions le 21 - 24/3/18. La seule référence que je puisse trouver à une unité militaire en poste à Guivry figure dans le dossier WO95 / 1874 / 2-2 (14 e division, État-major du QG, février 1918, page 32): «III Corps GO 7851, 14 février 1918, ……. L'artillerie de la 18e Division déménage à GUIVRY et NEUVILLE-EN-BEINE. En même temps, La 298 e Brigade d'armée RFA quitte GUIVRY. » J'espère que ce qui précède aide. Les fichiers mentionnés ci-dessus peuvent contenir plus de références à Guivry. Bill T Hello Bill, I downloaded everything! Thanks for the research and the information. Lots of reading for the next few days. I would come back here to show the progress of my readings. Gada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltea Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 Hi Gada Glad you were able to download the files and bonne chance with the research - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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