The devons 1915 photo, who ?

[garfyboy]

Good morning all

 

i am researching this card and so far:

13370 - Frederick Edward Cartwright , 9th devons, Kia 1st July 1916. Devonshire trench cem.

 

14182, formerly 346062, Fred holt, 9th devons, discharged 12.12.18

 

13336 - no soldier found serving with the devons, there is a Dorset Reg soldier with this number ?

 

The name ....... Billy.... ???

 

As there are four soldiers, one must be Billy ??? And the numbers are the other three?

i would be interested in any thought please

 

thanks

andy

[tootrock]

13336 Willie Bachelor 5th Dorsets

Martin

[garfyboy]

45 minutes ago, tootrock said:

13336 Willie Bachelor 5th Dorsets

Martin

Thanks Martin

I think its very probable that 13336 could be Willie Batchelor from the 5th Dorsets, what about the name Billy, short for Willie? and the other name/word, looks like DEO HED?

 

[tootrock]

The other name could be Ned, often used instead of Edward,referring to 13370 - Frederick Edward Cartwright. Can't decipher the other letters.

Martin

Edited 14 June , 2020 by tootrock

[garfyboy]

9 hours ago, tootrock said:

The other name could be Ned, often used instead of Edward,referring to 13370 - Frederick Edward Cartwright. Can't decipher the other letters.

Martin

Great shout Martin, thank you 👍

[TEW]

The PC pre dates the arrival of the 9th Devons in France so it's possible 13336 did not serve abroad or was transferred and re-numbered.

 

Soldiers' Died has some Somerset LI men who were formerly Devon Regt. and had 1333* numbers. These numbers do not show on medal records.

 

13330  8/Devons became 15056 SLI

13333 8/Devs ditto 15058, 15059

13340 8/Devs ditto 15066.

 

Therefore 13336 Devons should be 1506* SLI. Unfortunately, there's no Billy/William in that range of SLI numbers.

 

15061 seems to have been issued to 2 different SLI men.

 

13333 Devons became 15058 and 15059 SLI. Therefore two devon men one from 8th Bn. with same number transferred to SLI. Something else clearly going on.

 

A transfer from Devons to Dorset would be re-numbered.

TEW

[garfyboy]

8 hours ago, TEW said:

The PC pre dates the arrival of the 9th Devons in France so it's possible 13336 did not serve abroad or was transferred and re-numbered.

 

Soldiers' Died has some Somerset LI men who were formerly Devon Regt. and had 1333* numbers. These numbers do not show on medal records.

 

13330  8/Devons became 15056 SLI

13333 8/Devs ditto 15058, 15059

13340 8/Devs ditto 15066.

 

Therefore 13336 Devons should be 1506* SLI. Unfortunately, there's no Billy/William in that range of SLI numbers.

 

15061 seems to have been issued to 2 different SLI men.

 

13333 Devons became 15058 and 15059 SLI. Therefore two devon men one from 8th Bn. with same number transferred to SLI. Something else clearly going on.

 

A transfer from Devons to Dorset would be re-numbered.

TEW

Hi TEW

 

Now that is brilliant research/ knowledge, so its safe to discount 13336 Dorsetshire regiment and say that the 13336 Devonshire soldier didn't serve overseas,i still have two identified from this card so im pretty happy

Thank you for your input

 

Andy

[TEW]

I'm certain there are others that know far more than I do on number issues and Devon numbering.

 

I'm 99.9% certain that if 13336 of Devons ended up serving abroad with Dorsets he would be re-numbered according to Dorset scheme.

 

I'd guess whoever bought, captioned and wrote the reverse details did not include himself in the details?

 

The Deo Ned part is odd, Ned for Edward sounds good but Deo?

 

TEW

[tootrock]

Might the Devon and Dorset Regiment Museum have records of men and their numbers?

Martin

[TEW]

1 hour ago, tootrock said:

Might the Devon and Dorset Regiment Museum have records of men and their numbers?

Martin

 

Probably, but I'm pretty sure there are forum members who know more!

TEW

[PRC]

14 hours ago, garfyboy said:

so its safe to discount 13336 Dorsetshire regiment and say that the 13336 Devonshire soldier didn't serve overseas

 

May be a red herring but at the time the picture was taken the 9th Battalion Devonshire Regiment would still have had a Machine Gun sections. The Long, Long Trail had the 9th Devons landing at Le Havre on the 28th July 1915 as part of the 20th (Light) Division. On the 8th August 1915 it came under the orders of the 20th Brigade, 7th Division.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/devonshire-regiment/

 

Shortly after the creation of the Machine Gun Corps, members of those 9th Devons MG sections would been rebadged into the Corps and transferred into the newly created 20th Machine Gun Company, part of the 20th Brigade. (LLT says formed 10th February 1916). Each of the four Battalion in the Brigade would have lost the equivalent of a Platoon.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/7th-division/

 

In my experience the Machine Gun Corps service medal rolls don't mention previous units, so they don't appear on the MiC. Same situation seems to apply to the entry in Soldiers Died in the Great War which sometimes references the original unit as additional information but I think I've only rarely come across it for a soldier who died serving with the MGC, if at all.

 

So as War Diaries are free to download from the National Archive at the moment night be worthwhile downloading the one for the 20th Machine Gun Company to see if it has details of the day 1 roll for the unit. Even if it doesn't but it gives a date for when the men transferred in then you could check the 9th Devons diary to see if there is a list of those who transferred out.

 

I believe these are the ones you want but please check

20th Machine Gun Company: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352420

9th Devons: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352414

 

Additionally, while the service number probably is "13370" as the last digit is quite distinctive from the "6" in "13336", I did take a look at the MiC record for the Devonshire Regiment in the National Archive and there is a match for every number between 13370 and 13379 except for 13375 & 13376.

 

Transfer into the MGC isn't the only way that the original service number with the Devons may have got 'lost' in sources like the Service Medal Rolls and associated MiC's and Soldiers Died in the Great War, so absence from those sources doesn't automatically mean that a man didn't serve overseas. It may also be worth checking the casualty lists for members of the Devonshire Regiment with the relevant service numbers - they could have been wounded in action and subsquently posted to another regiment \ corps on recovery.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter