ID of this RAMC officer.

[benjamin thyla]

Is there someone among the GWF-members who has the resources to find data on a Lieutenant Colonel of the R.A.M.C., D.S.O. who's name is WJS Harvey?

He served at the Western Front and was with certitude in KÖLN (Cologne) May 8th, 1919, leading a parade of medical intervention teams "from the area" on hospital ground. That hospital was Casualty Clearing Station Nr 36, a  tent/barak hospital closely associated to Rousbrugge-Haringe (Bandagem Cemetery) during the Spring Offensive of the Germans ("Georgette").

This man existed (factual proof in CCS 36 diary) and I cannot find a link to the man.

There is a possibility that he was the C/O of CCS Nr 36, but therefore the diary note of May 8th is too suggestive... If he indeed was the C/O, then he signed WITHOUT the "W" of WJS in his full signature, and with "JSW" in the right column of the diaries requiring but a paraph... Meaning that he himself did not use the "W" within the set of his three first names.

 

Much obliged!

 

Dirk   

 

PS: about my earlier mail above about Jackie the baboon: the date of injury is April 17th, 1918., on Mt KEMMEL. As already posted by some of the forum members, I checked for myself too: the injury of Jackie is reported by "our war correspondent" of The Times, April 21st. So it couldn't have occurred April 25th. In the Loughborough Echo April 17th is the date of injury. That makes my data-round on Jackie "finished".

[TEW]

Dirk, I was just about to post.

 

Two things to add here;

 

1. The 'Last Question'. The entry means that everyone is moving to 44 CCS except the CO, QM and sufficient [staff] to attend to helpless cases unfit to move. Then it adds there were 10 deaths that day as opposed to the idea that the above statement resulted in 10 deaths.

 

2. I now have a 100% certain ID of the CO of 36 CCS. He is Lt. Col. J S Harvey as believed earlier. He had been CO of 61 FA until Feb 1918 and that diary says that their CO has transferred to command 36CCS. Signature from both diaries is identical.

 

Full name is William John Saundry Harvey DSO. Although he only signs as J S Harvey.

TEW

[benjamin thyla]

1 hour ago, TEW said:

Dirk, I was just about to post.

 

Two things to add here;

 

1. The 'Last Question'. The entry means that everyone is moving to 44 CCS except the CO, QM and sufficient [staff] to attend to helpless cases unfit to move. Then it adds there were 10 deaths that day as opposed to the idea that the above statement resulted in 10 deaths.

 

2. I now have a 100% certain ID of the CO of 36 CCS. He is Lt. Col. J S Harvey as believed earlier. He had been CO of 61 FA until Feb 1918 and that diary says that their CO has transferred to command 36CCS. Signature from both diaries is identical.

 

Full name is William John Saundry Harvey DSO. Although he only signs as J S Harvey.

TEW

Good evening Major-General,

 

this is quite an emotion... I have been browsing and mailing around - annoying people in fact - to find proof that the Lt Col DSO (no mentioning of C/O) WJS Harvey, "leading the parade in Cologne May 8th, 1919, was indeed the C/O of CCS Nr 36... What a way, what a group effort!

 

You are right about point 1)... Can you delete it for me? I guess I saw too many warmovies where the Blue triaged ("expectants") are put outside the tent, the church, whatever... Sorry about that.

 

In my opinion, GWF is now (and by far) the only source with the most accurate (factual) data on Jackie the Baboon.

Allow me to summarize with many thanks to guys I don't know like Dave and Marc... and to you of course.

 

Facts:

1° Jackie was wounded on Mt Kemmel 1918, April 17th (sources Loughborough Echo and The Times "war correspondent note" dated April 21st) and lost function of both legs (same source), completely eliminating April 25th as a possibility.

2° Jackie and Marr were NOT at Delville Wood (opposed to Nancy the Springbok who was, with her handler E. Petersen) (Role calls Delville Wood, I. Houghton)

3° Jackie was transferred from ??? (a medical facility in proximity of KEMMEL, ran by Dr RN WOODSEND).

Highly suggestive to be a farm in Ouderdom close to Grootebeek cemetery (owner of farm, aged > 80, confirms that farm was "a medical facility")

4° Woodsend is a young RAMC captain/surgeon and NOT the LT-Col of the iconic picture, with the dog. His grandson Hugh is the source. 

Picture shows a naked baboon in front of a farm, typical end 19th century-style, with a "bandage" right stump and a Paris cast left foot ("lost function of both legs")

5° C/O CCS 36 signing with JS------ (clerk cannot read the signature) takes full credit for treating the baboon ("amputated here at CCS"), adding the gender ("the monkey is a female of the baboon type"), adding that left foot was broken and that she is 4 1/2 years old. C/O starts promoting Jackie and Marr for RC fundraising in London (sources = 4 notes between the C/O of CCS Nr 36, SAI "composite" regiment and the BRCS of Boulogne).

Jackie weighs "3 St and is 2 1/2 ft high": all the gender charcteristics of a female baboon (cfr. above newspaper sources). Male baboons weigh and measure the double. Why her gender was concealed remains an open question.

6° CCS 36 closed between February 28th and June (moved to WATTEN FR), diary states that only a few sick are admitted. Above sources mention that Jackie has "his" own bed among wounded soldiers "at the Base hospital" (that we still need to clear out)

7° The cast and bandage are time indicators: Jackie is photographed in front of a farm, probably in the proximity of WATTEN? Looks surreal to believe that the C/O of CCS Nr 36 and Jackie returned to DeBrabandere Farm Vlamertingseweg-Ouderdom, for having their picture taken... 

8° Now we can add that the C/O of CCS Nr 36 is confirmed Lt-Col DSO WJS Harvey, former FA Nr 61 C/O.  

 

Many thanks to all, including the old sources dating from 2010... GREAT JOB DONE

 

D. Danschutter, MMSc, CCP

Belgium

[benjamin thyla]

Now that we established his ID (Dr.) William John Saundry HARVEY, I could find details on his personal life and career as well.

 

Born in St Just, Penzance, Cornwall, England on 18 May 1874 to (Dr.) Andrew Harvey and Ann Sophia Hodge Saundry. 

William John Saundry Harvey DSO married Edith Harriet Harvey and had 1 child (daughter Vivian 1900-1954). Daughter probably married? (Vivian Martin Harvey) 

He passed away on 22 Feb 1950 in Penzance, Cornwall, England. His wife too passed away 1950 (°Ancestry.com)

 

Surgeon on Probation Lieut Jan 14^th 1902 (stationed Bere Island) (°London Gzt + RAMC)

Captain Jan 14^th 1905 (stationed Bere Island) (°RAMC)

He received the DSO as Temp Lt-Col Jan 6th 1917 (Age 43). (°London Gazette). A question, is that why his sleeve (on the picture) has some kind of an additional small "bar, line or border" boarding his stripes? To indicate that he was a temporary Lt-Col at that time?

Full Lt-Col Dec 26^th, 1923 (°RAMC)

He retired from the RAMC May 18^th, 1929 (Age 55).(° RAMC 1385)

 

So, he lived till the age of 76, and was 43-44 when the iconic picture was taken (must have been between end of April-Mid June).

Perhaps it was taken on his birthday? 

 

Looking further for some pictures...

 

Grtz

Dirk

[benjamin thyla]

On 12/06/2020 at 13:39, TEW said:

Not a good photo to go on I know.

 

A few non-proved facts;

Photo taken at Ouderdom ADS - April 1918 - 28th Field ambulance.

Led to believe photo has been compared to existing building and that others claim it is the ADS farm at Ouderdom

 

28 FA was there from 17th to 25th April. Sheet 28 G.30.c.40.95.

 

CO of 28th FA at the time was Lt. Col. Thomas Ernest Hardy DSO (Gazetted Jan 17), bar to DSO (Gazetted Sept 18). TEH born 1880 so would be 48 if the facts are correct.

 

Cropped photo from Samilhistory.com.

Probably captioned with incorrect ID.

 

Man in photo is a Lt. Col.?

Has a ribbon, could be DSO?

Could be 48?

Therefore is Thomas Ernest Hardy?

Thanks

TEW

Another coincidence...

In The London Gazette of Jan 06, 1917 (honours section, page 29), TE Harty and WJS Harvey are mentioned the one under the other! What are the odds?.... 

Dirk

[TEW]

Coincidences pop up like this.

 

Give the age of the RAMC Lt. COL in the photo it is more likely to be WJS Harvey (44) than TE Harty (38). This means that Jackie was taken to 36 CCS, operated on by Harvey then returned to the ADS with Harvey for the photo. Unless the man in the photo is someone else not known.

 

28 FA left the ADS 25/4/18, although I can't say why the CO of a CCS returned to the ADS with Jackie I would guess this would be while 28 FA were still there.

 

Have also seen some family background for WJSH, the burial in Michigan USA must be incorrect!

 

He may have a living Great Grandson but finding another photo of him to compare could be difficult.

 

Quote

He received the DSO as Temp Lt-Col Jan 6th 1917 (Age 43). (°London Gazette). A question, is that why his sleeve (on the picture) has some kind of an additional small "bar, line or border" boarding his stripes? To indicate that he was a temporary Lt-Col at that time?

 

Not much of a uniform expert but I think not. Not aware of a cuff-rank that differs for temporary ranks.

 

Other loose end is how Woodsend fits in. No mention with the FA or the CCS. Also not known where the amputation took place.

 

TEW

[benjamin thyla]

On 12/06/2020 at 13:39, TEW said:

Not a good photo to go on I know.

 

A few non-proved facts;

Photo taken at Ouderdom ADS - April 1918 - 28th Field ambulance.

Led to believe photo has been compared to existing building and that others claim it is the ADS farm at Ouderdom

 

28 FA was there from 17th to 25th April. Sheet 28 G.30.c.40.95.

 

CO of 28th FA at the time was Lt. Col. Thomas Ernest Hardy DSO (Gazetted Jan 17), bar to DSO (Gazetted Sept 18). TEH born 1880 so would be 48 if the facts are correct.

 

Cropped photo from Samilhistory.com.

Probably captioned with incorrect ID.

 

Man in photo is a Lt. Col.?

Has a ribbon, could be DSO?

Could be 48?

Therefore is Thomas Ernest Hardy?

Thanks

TEW

Truly amazing and I admire this group effort to solve "the monkey case" once and for all... Well, at least we try 

 

Factual and crosschecked with different sources:

• Jackie was a female baboon (°C/O CCS 36, °sexual dimorphism, °Loughborough Echo 1918) of 4 1/2 years old,
• wounded at Mt Kemmel on April 17th, 1918 (°Loughborough Echo nov 1918, °Nottingham J nov 1918, °The Times April 21st, °C/O CCS 36) 
• She was treated by a young surgeon, Captain RAMC RN Woodsend (°Medical J the Practitioner 1950, °grandson Hugh 2019)
• who put her on an ambulance to "the CCS" (°notes RN Woodsend 1918), therefore he did NOT operate her in a CCS. 
• That CCS was Nr 36 located at Rousbrugge (Haringe, Bandagem)
• the broken foot was treated at CCS 36 (°C/O CCS 36)
• but CCS 36 was moved to Watten (FR) and closed during the whole month of May. The war correspondent of The Times visiting the baboon April 21st did so at "one of the base hospitals" 
• A surgeon, DSO and Temp Lt-Col WJS Harvey, C/O of CCS 36 organized the whole fundraising idea (°4 notes SAI, CCS 36, BRCS) 
• who came from 61st Field Ambulance February 1918
• The Lt-Col on the iconic picture with Jack(ie) and the bearded Fox Terrier is RAMC and DSO.  

These are the facts, checked, rechecked and cross-checked. 

The rest we don't know and are therefore guesses:

• Did RAMC Captain RN Woodsend work in an ADS or at a FA? Higly suggestive for being one of the many surgeons of one of the FAs situated somewhere along the vector Kemmel -> Haringe. Even without referring to folk stories, La Clytte or Ouderdom (Grootebeek) were (ADS and) FA locations on the "route" to CCS 36. 
• Amputations (two lit. sources) were conducted in 2nd Army FA or CCS, nothing else. Marr would not have known that, but the stretcher bearers would have known it. As C/O WJS Harvey writes in the CCS 36 diary after training days " they are keen learners". RAMC stretcher bearers in the 4th year of battle must have been highly "routined" and trained: an amputee case with such adcocate as Marr they would have taken to a FA at least. 
• Jackie must have followed: be transferred April 28th together with the other CCS 36 casualties to CCS 44 (but that is ambiguously formulated in the CCS 36 diary) "all nurses and officers proceed tot 44". Does that mean that the patients too were medevac'ed to 44?
• I guess we need to forget about the location of the picture with the DSO Lt-Col. We will never find it. Perimeter Watten? CCS 44? Other? 
• Why was the gender of Jackie concealed? Because she was officialy enlisted "on Army strength"? A soldier? Were woman not allowed to fight in the trenches during WW1 (stupid question but I have to put it)? The answer must be something "technical incompatibility", army-paperwork no?

grtz

Dirk

[Andrew Upton]

10 hours ago, benjamin thyla said:

...A question, is that why his sleeve (on the picture) has some kind of an additional small "bar, line or border" boarding his stripes? To indicate that he was a temporary Lt-Col at that time?...

 

7 hours ago, TEW said:

...Not much of a uniform expert but I think not. Not aware of a cuff-rank that differs for temporary ranks...

 

The additional stripes are just the standard extra thin braid used on the rank of Major to full Colonel - nothing to do with temporary rank, eg:

 

Colonel:

 

 

Lieutenant Colonel:

 

 

Major:

 

 

 

[benjamin thyla]

Sorry, source Delville Wood is of course I. Uys, not I. Houghton.

Dirk

[A Sanyal]

On 18/12/2020 at 15:06, benjamin thyla said:

Now that we established his ID (Dr.) William John Saundry HARVEY, I could find details on his personal life and career as well.

 

Born in St Just, Penzance, Cornwall, England on 18 May 1874 to (Dr.) Andrew Harvey and Ann Sophia Hodge Saundry. 

William John Saundry Harvey DSO married Edith Harriet Harvey and had 1 child (daughter Vivian 1900-1954). Daughter probably married? (Vivian Martin Harvey) 

He passed away on 22 Feb 1950 in Penzance, Cornwall, England. His wife too passed away 1950 (°Ancestry.com)

 

Surgeon on Probation Lieut Jan 14^th 1902 (stationed Bere Island) (°London Gzt + RAMC)

Captain Jan 14^th 1905 (stationed Bere Island) (°RAMC)

He received the DSO as Temp Lt-Col Jan 6th 1917 (Age 43). (°London Gazette). A question, is that why his sleeve (on the picture) has some kind of an additional small "bar, line or border" boarding his stripes? To indicate that he was a temporary Lt-Col at that time?

Full Lt-Col Dec 26^th, 1923 (°RAMC)

He retired from the RAMC May 18^th, 1929 (Age 55).(° RAMC 1385)

 

So, he lived till the age of 76, and was 43-44 when the iconic picture was taken (must have been between end of April-Mid June).

Perhaps it was taken on his birthday? 

 

Looking further for some pictures...

 

Grtz

Dirk

 

Hats off!!

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284993/page/n673/mode/2up page 756 shows Lt Col WJS Harvey as OC BSH Dalhousie in 1926.

Is it okay to use the picture for the Unit Digest?!

Regards,

Col AS. (CO MH Dalhousie wef May 2018)  

 

 

[benjamin thyla]

Hi,

what does the document mean with BSH and Dalhousie? I locate 'Dalhousie' in Canada and West-India. Does it mean Harvey became CO at ???

grtz

dirk

[A Sanyal]

Seems he did, as Officer Commanding British Station Hospital Dalhousie (India), 1926.

[TEW]

A Sanyal,

 

I've had to re-read all this topic. Just to re-cap.

 

The image I originally put up came from https://samilhistory.com/tag/jackie-the-baboon/ it is captioned as being Lt. Col.R N Woodsend. Woodsend was not a Lt. Col during WWI and was too young to be the man in the photo.

 

To be honest I don't think it's 100% established who the man in the photo is. Lt-Col Thomas Ernest Harty was a contender as he was CO of a field ambulance relevant to the Baboon's evacuation and the photo location connects to that field ambulance. However, Harty would have been 38 when the photo was taken. Doesn't look 38 to me!

 

Lt. Col. J S Harvey CO of 36 Casualty Clearing Station, aged 44 in 1918. This man treated the baboon at 36 CCS, but why would he return to a forward dressing station to be photographed with the baboon is a mystery. Perhaps the location is not correct or perhaps the photo is of another man altogether, could this man be 44?

 

Personally I'd like 100% confirmation from a descendant or another attributed photograph.

TEW

 

 

[benjamin thyla]

Hi,

I thought we had a kind of established that Lieut-Col TE Harty was not an option/possibility anymore.

 

I never came across a source connecting Jackie the Baboon to TE Harty's FA. On the other hand, the connection of Jackie with CCS No 36 is imperative. It is in CCS No 36 that Jackie was admitted, to stay for just 1 night after which he was transferred to a (coastal) Base Hospital (°TT April 22nd, 1918). Which would then have been Calais, Le Havre, Boulogne or Etaples (didn't figure out yet to which BH CCS No 36 - located April 17-19th in Bandaghem - would have transferred the baboon).

 

It is the CO of CCS No 36 who started the crowdfunding idea, righting the BRCS commissioner at Boulogne. Remember, the CO had an unreadable signature WJS------y. The two of us, separately, then could establish via the Archives that the former CO of 61 FA "WJS-----y" was Lieut-Col William John Saundry Harvey, DSO, 44 Y old on the date. 

 

We should forget about the location of the picture (as being the farm of DeBrabandere at Ouderdom). I visited the salient till N-France (Pas-de-Calais), I found at least 20 farms that match with the picture. Since the baboon has a cast on his right foot and no arm wound (healed), the picture is taken in France, in front of a random farm I guess, most likely in June 1918 when Harvey writes his letters to the BRCS. 36 CCS is at that moment deployed in Watten (Fr). So the man on the picture is Harvey: what other Lieut-Col could have posed with a naked baboon, with a healed armwound but with Paris's cast on the foot, if it was not a picture to accompany the fundraising idea? 

 

I contacted "all" there exists on Cornwall records and musea (Kresen Kernow, Morrab, Penzance, at least 5 libraries): Harvey (1874-1950) has evaporated in time. I found he had one child (Vivian Martin) who committed suicide in 1954 (no next of kin).  

 

Woodsend never was a Lieut-Col, he was a Captain. It is Peter KA Digby who "confabulated" the underscript to make it match with the picture of the Lieut-Col, a dog and the baboon. Digby's merit is that he retrieved and collected unique pictures and documents, which then made of him the most validated source. But the fact(s) that he "invented" Woodsend, copy/pasted the (nonexistent) hamont of "Rinningholst" without checking his source and claiming Jackie died in a house fire... makes him a most dubious source.

 

The baboon must have been wounded after April 17th, as Woodsend describes the retreat of the SAI. The SAI vector April 17th was Southeastbound (Wijtschaete). April 18th and/or April 19th it was inverted in the opposite direction: from Wijtschaete over Vierstraat to La Clytte and Reninghelst. But we must respect a time window of at least 24H minus April 21st, since the war correspondent of TT then wrote his report in which he wrote that Jackie was already in a coastal BH, after having stayed 1 night in the CCS. 

 

Woodsend wrote that "his" Brigade HQ (singular) had retreated to wooden barracks "behind Rinningholst", meaning that he was not at all familiar with the place. It is also clear that he never met the baboon before, so Woodsend (serving from 1914 on) was not 9th (Scottish division). Probably he was a medical officer of a composite Bn, composed of remnant troops since April 1st. Woodsend was no RMO of a RAP: he wrote that despite the heavy shelling that morning "he had nothing to do" so he was very happy when a veterinary officer asked for his medical opinion about "a queer patient". Wooden barracks behind "Rinningholst", a veterinary officer, the retreat of the SAI, no casualties, the proximity of 36 CCS, it all makes of Woodsend an ADS or FA medical officer somewhere in the Wippenhoek-Abeele-Reninghelst (Poperinge) area...   

 

The last few years I befriended Woodsend's grandson Hugh. Woodsend still has one surviving daughter Anne (100 years old!). Grandpa often told about the monkey, but not in what unit he was.

 

Jackie, Albert Marr, Harvey and Woodsend have all 1 thing in common: they were erased from archives and documents. I found death certificates on James Marr, Harriet Most (Albert's mother), Vivian Martin Harvey... but all on the protagonists of our story is lost or discarded...

 

Sincerely,

Dirk Danschutter (alias Benjamin Thyla(cine)

 

On the image below, the "real" dr Robert Noel Woodsend (not the one of PKA Digby)

 

    

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

[benjamin thyla]

To A Sanyal, thx for the input. Do you have an idea what a "typical" duration of service would have been in India? For OCs in the interbellum?

grtz

Dirk

Edited 22 April , 2021 by benjamin thyla

[benjamin thyla]

Hi, unrelevant update (something personal)... Harvey was OC in Dalhousie, which (I just looked it up) is in Jammu Kashmir. In 2005 I worked (in a CIMIC humaniatarian relief operation after the earthquake) in the Muzzafarabad-Jakothi area, alongside the Jehlum river. Prehimalayan Kashmir... Despite the 'warzone' beautiful memories: now I just realize that Harvey and I have looked at the same mountains. How amazing...

 

BTW, the Jehlum river is the Hydaspes, the enigmatic river in which Alexander the Great had one of his greatest victories against the Persians

Edited 22 April , 2021 by benjamin thyla

[A Sanyal]

10 hours ago, benjamin thyla said:

To A Sanyal, thx for the input. Do you have an idea what a "typical" duration of service would have been in India? For OCs in the interbellum?

grtz

Dirk

Dirk, I have no idea how long a typical tenure in India would have been. As for "hill station tenures", such as in the Hospital in Dalhousie (where I am posted and the only subject of my study), OCs had a max of a 2-year tenure. The hospital functioned from April to September; and everyone would go off to the plains in the first week of October. (Referencing from Army Lists, RAMC Journals, and RAMC Dsitribution Lists, and an old OT Register we have from 1938). 

Regards.

AS.

[A Sanyal]

10 hours ago, benjamin thyla said:

Hi, unrelevant update (something personal)... Harvey was OC in Dalhousie, which (I just looked it up) is in Jammu Kashmir. In 2005 I worked (in a CIMIC humaniatarian relief operation after the earthquake) in the Muzzafarabad-Jakothi area, alongside the Jehlum river. Prehimalayan Kashmir... Despite the 'warzone' beautiful memories: now I just realize that Harvey and I have looked at the same mountains. How amazing...

 

BTW, the Jehlum river is the Hydaspes, the enigmatic river in which Alexander the Great had one of his greatest victories against the Persians

Sir,

Dalhousie is in Himachal Pradesh, a state in India south of Jammu & Kashmir.

Wonderful to know that you worked in the area (on the other side) post 2005-quake.

Regards,

AS.

[benjamin thyla]

Good evening AS,

Thanks for the valuable input again!

We started and returned our rotation from Islamabad. By trucks we went to Muzzafarabad, from there on we went into the direction of the Indian border but we could not reach Chakothi, as the road had disappeared into the Jehlum. The endpoint till where we got and put up our field hospital (Role 2 Light Maneuver) was at Gahri Dupputha. Like in any disaster relief mission, the first week we had to focus on the field hospital "as the core" and as we were over surged by thousands of casualties. Compared to my other missions, I have never seen such a high number of traumatic amputations as here in PCK (sorry, should say PAK now).

It is also my only mission where I noticed the distant dogs barking in a way that they seemed to pass a ringing bell... Sure you heard a pretty landslide a few minutes later. But the dogs knew it way before us...  

Later on in the mission we organized OOH missions and then we reached out as far as Balakot, Bagh and some mountain villages alongside the Jehlum river.

I had some good friends among the Pakistan Engineering troops, our neighbors   

[A Sanyal]

To Dirk

Sir, I saw your msg with 3 questions in notifications but I cannot see them in this thread. Could you post it again, please?

Regards.

[benjamin thyla]

Good evening Colonel,

 

1) I did not fully realize that you mentioned that you are the CO of the Dalhousie hospital and that it is also your study object... As I am very focused on (William) John Saundry Harvey, who - as you posted earlier - indeed was the CO of the BHS of Dalhousie from September 14th 1926, till? I was hoping that perhaps "somewhere" there might be some old photographs of RAMC troops there on the site? Like, is the BHS building still existing? How can I "find" it on the internet? etc...

2) for that reason I intended to contact the Buri Singh Museum (1908) who might have some details/artefacts going back till 1926???

3) there seems to be another researcher at Dalhousie, Kiran Chadha, perhaps she is acquainted to you? Her too, I would like to ask her if she came across some material dating from the interbellum as her study object (and subject of her book) dates from 160 years ago...

I browsed a bunch of pictures and did not realize how beautiful/truly remarkable Dalhousie is...

PS: I hope I did not offend you by mentioning that I worked in Pakistan Administered Kashmir. I forgot about the issues between the parties, my mistake, sorry.

 

Sincerely

Dirk      

Edited 7 May , 2021 by benjamin thyla

[A Sanyal]

5 hours ago, benjamin thyla said:

Good evening Colonel,

 

1) I did not fully realize that you mentioned that you are the CO of the Dalhousie hospital and that it is also your study object... As I am very focused on (William) John Saundry Harvey, who - as you posted earlier - indeed was the CO of the BHS of Dalhousie from September 14th 1926, till? I was hoping that perhaps "somewhere" there might be some old photographs of RAMC troops there on the site? Like, is the BHS building still existing? How can I "find" it on the internet? etc...

2) for that reason I intended to contact the Buri Singh Museum (1908) who might have some details/artefacts going back till 1926???

3) there seems to be another researcher at Dalhousie, Kiran Chadha, perhaps she is acquainted to you? Her too, I would like to ask her if she came across some material dating from the interbellum as her study object (and subject of her book) dates from 160 years ago...

I browsed a bunch of pictures and did not realize how beautiful/truly remarkable Dalhousie is...

PS: I hope I did not offend you by mentioning that I worked in Pakistan Administered Kashmir. I forgot about the issues between the parties, my mistake, sorry.

 

Sincerely

Dirk      

Sir,

1. The Bhuri Singh Museum is not in Dalhousie, but in Chamba, which is about 55 km away. I wonder if there would be pictures of soldiers there. There is a town library in Dalhousie which has some old pictures, but I did not spot any pictures of the Hospital or staff there at all. You could download the pdf from https://www.jstor.org/stable/3401905 on the Indian Army Nursing Service with a picture of the stn on page 7. The two double storied buildings on the right in the distance were the BSH buildings.   

2. The Hospital buildings exist. There are no pictures of the hospital/ staff prior to about 1965.

3. Kiran Chadha authored a CTB on Dalhousie. Some of the history bits in it are quite off the mark. I would not be very effusive about the research but it's probably better than nothing. 

4. You could try to source documents online on Dalhousie from the National Archives of India. (https://www.abhilekh-patal.in/) once the COVID pandemic eases in Delhi.    

5. As one can see, Col Harvey was CO of the hospital as of Apr 1926. [ https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278901/page/n677/mode/2up ] (14 Sep 1926 is mentioned as date of completion of India tenure) . He was in Bareilly (India) in Mar 1926 [ p 746 lower part of the book https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/The_Monthly_Army_List/aXJEAQAAIAAJ?hl=&gbpv=1 ] . He was succeeded by Lt Col Osburne Ievers, DSO,MB, who was OC BSH Dalhousie as of Apr 1927 [ p 755 of  ] . So one can say that Col Harvey was OC BSH D wef Apr 1926 to Mar 1927. Furthermore, the hospital would be closed during the winter, wef Oct to Mar. 

5. Why would one be offended! 

Regards,

AS.

1 minute ago, A Sanyal said:

Sir,

1. The Bhuri Singh Museum is not in Dalhousie, but in Chamba, which is about 55 km away. I wonder if there would be pictures of soldiers there. There is a town library in Dalhousie which has some old pictures, but I did not spot any pictures of the Hospital or staff there at all. You could download the pdf from https://www.jstor.org/stable/3401905 on the Indian Army Nursing Service with a picture of the stn on page 7. The two double storied buildings on the right in the distance were the BSH buildings.   

2. The Hospital buildings exist. There are no pictures of the hospital/ staff prior to about 1965.

3. Kiran Chadha authored a CTB on Dalhousie. Some of the history bits in it are quite off the mark. I would not be very effusive about the research but it's probably better than nothing. 

4. You could try to source documents online on Dalhousie from the National Archives of India. (https://www.abhilekh-patal.in/) once the COVID pandemic eases in Delhi.    

5. As one can see, Col Harvey was CO of the hospital as of Apr 1926. [ https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278901/page/n677/mode/2up ] (14 Sep 1926 is mentioned as date of completion of India tenure) . He was in Bareilly (India) in Mar 1926 [ p 746 lower part of the book https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/The_Monthly_Army_List/aXJEAQAAIAAJ?hl=&gbpv=1 ] . He was succeeded by Lt Col Osburne Ievers, DSO,MB, who was OC BSH Dalhousie as of Apr 1927 [ p 755 of  ] . So one can say that Col Harvey was OC BSH D wef Apr 1926 to Mar 1927. Furthermore, the hospital would be closed during the winter, wef Oct to Mar. 

5. Why would one be offended! 

Regards,

AS.

 (Sorry, para 5 was left incomplete. p 755 of https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278902

[benjamin thyla]

thank you very much Col, I will look at it in detail and know that I will enjoy it very much!

Good evening

Dirk

[A Sanyal]

On 08/05/2021 at 02:16, benjamin thyla said:

Good evening Colonel,

 

1) I did not fully realize that you mentioned that you are the CO of the Dalhousie hospital and that it is also your study object... As I am very focused on (William) John Saundry Harvey, who - as you posted earlier - indeed was the CO of the BHS of Dalhousie from September 14th 1926, till? I was hoping that perhaps "somewhere" there might be some old photographs of RAMC troops there on the site? Like, is the BHS building still existing? How can I "find" it on the internet? etc...

2) for that reason I intended to contact the Buri Singh Museum (1908) who might have some details/artefacts going back till 1926???

3) there seems to be another researcher at Dalhousie, Kiran Chadha, perhaps she is acquainted to you? Her too, I would like to ask her if she came across some material dating from the interbellum as her study object (and subject of her book) dates from 160 years ago...

I browsed a bunch of pictures and did not realize how beautiful/truly remarkable Dalhousie is...

PS: I hope I did not offend you by mentioning that I worked in Pakistan Administered Kashmir. I forgot about the issues between the parties, my mistake, sorry.

 

Sincerely

Dirk      

Sir,

The 1/25th County of London Cyclists have some pictures of troops. Here's one of them at a place called Banikhet on the outskirts of Dalhousie . : https://www.25thlondon.com/hpalbum/100_-_Dalhousie_-_Bannikhet_Barracks.html 

You will find Percy Chisnall's amazing albums with pictures in India, including some of Dalhousie, in the Photos section, here: https://www.25thlondon.com/ 

The 1/25th was one of two Cyclist Bns in Dalhousie, in the period 1917 to 1919, the other being the 1st/ 1st Kent Cyclist Bn (the only Cyclist Bn to have won battle honours (three))  

Regards,

AS.

[benjamin thyla]

Sorry for the delay in my answer! Many, many thanks for the links, I am indebted to you.

It is my wish (after 3 years of intense research) to propose a paper regarding the baboon to the board of a peer reviewed journal. Being a medical scientist (disaster medicine) and not at all a historian, I am way out of my comfort zone here, but I am determined to try it.

I would like to mention you in the acknowledgment section: is that okay with you? Can I have your full name please, if you agree? 

Sincerely,

Dirk