ID of this RAMC officer.

[TEW]

Not a good photo to go on I know.

 

A few non-proved facts;

Photo taken at Ouderdom ADS - April 1918 - 28th Field ambulance.

Led to believe photo has been compared to existing building and that others claim it is the ADS farm at Ouderdom

 

28 FA was there from 17th to 25th April. Sheet 28 G.30.c.40.95.

 

CO of 28th FA at the time was Lt. Col. Thomas Ernest Hardy DSO (Gazetted Jan 17), bar to DSO (Gazetted Sept 18). TEH born 1880 so would be 48 if the facts are correct.

 

Cropped photo from Samilhistory.com.

Probably captioned with incorrect ID.

 

Man in photo is a Lt. Col.?

Has a ribbon, could be DSO?

Could be 48?

Therefore is Thomas Ernest Hardy?

Thanks

TEW

[Andrew Upton]

20 minutes ago, TEW said:

Man in photo is a Lt. Col.?

Has a ribbon, could be DSO?

Could be 48?

Therefore is Thomas Ernest Hardy?

 

 

The man in the photo has cuff rank confirming he was Lieutenant-Colonel when the photo was taken, and what's visible of the ribbon seems a good match for how orthochromatic film typically renders the blue-red-blue stripes of the DSO. The apparent age would also fit to my eye. I think you have a very good candidate in Thomas Ernest Hardy...

[TEW]

Thanks, this is one part of a quite complicated on forum topic. Hopefully this is one part solved.

Thanks again.

TEW

[ajsmith]

52 minutes ago, TEW said:

TEH born 1880 so would be 48 if the facts are correct

He'd be 38 if the photo was taken in 1918

Edited 12 June , 2020 by ajsmith

[Skipman]

That appears to be Lt. Col R N Woodsend Click

 

Mike

[ajsmith]

5 minutes ago, Skipman said:

That appears to be Lt. Col R N Woodsend 

TEW thinks the caption is incorrect. It originated here I think  http://www.southafricawargraves.org/search/details.php?id=10761

[Skipman]

26 minutes ago, ajsmith said:

TEW thinks the caption is incorrect. It originated here I think  http://www.southafricawargraves.org/search/details.php?id=10761

 

Ah, ok. Thanks. Will have a hunt later see if can stumble on anything.

 

Mike

[TEW]

.RN Woodsend seems to have been a Captain throughout. Plus Woodsend is far too young

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

Plus, no mention of Woodsend in any diary I've checked so far (quite a few!). The failing part of the story so far is that Woodsend was either the CO of a field ambulance or of a CCS. I don't see that as likely given his rank other than possibly Temp I/C.

TEW

[Skipman]

Is it just a coincedence that there is a Lt-Col Thomas Ernest Harty in 28 Fd Amb Click

 

Mike

Edited 12 June , 2020 by Skipman

[davidbohl]

Harty died in S.A 1955

From the BNA

Published: Tuesday 03 May 1955
Newspaper: Dundee Courier

 

Dave

 

 

And marriage 1922

 

 

Edited 12 June , 2020 by davidbohl
marriage

[TEW]

Mike, I noticed his MIC states 28th FA plus his signature is all over the war diary. This is only part of the bigger story regarding a wounded baboon.

So far the variables are the injury took place in either Sept 1917 or April 1918.

Woodsend amputated the leg and sent the baboon to CCS.

28th FA ran the ADS for the baboon's division in 1918.

No link so far for Woodsend with any FA.

Much here to delve into but clearing up the officer's ID is a start.

 

Dave, not seen that before, I wonder if links with SA Brigade in WWI is relevant to place of death.

TEW

 

These are some things I never thought I'd be saying on forum!

Edited 12 June , 2020 by TEW

[davidbohl]

Another potted history of Jackie the Baboon https://www.samvoint.org/wars/jackie-the-baboon

 

Harty was a bit of a runner in Bengal in 1909 from the BNA

 

Dave

 

 

[Skipman]

If it helps, on FindMyPast The Medical Register for 1913 has a Robert Noel Woodsend. The Manor, E. Bridgeford, Notts.Date and Place of Registration 1909, May 29. E. Qualifications Mem. R. Coll. Surg. Eng. 1909. Lic. R. Coll. Phys. Lond. 1909. Click

 

Mike

[TEW]

It's all helping build up a picture, thanks.

 

Establishing Woodsend's role is proving difficult. I've read his description of the event but can't tie him down as being with an FA and a particular dressing station. He performed the surgery and then evacuated the casualty to CCS.

 

Looked at 9/ADMS plus the 3 FAs of the division, no Woodsend! Could he have been a battalion MO and performed surgery at an RAP, seems unlikely to me.

 

Then there's the date discrepancies, either Sept 17 or April 18 for the event. Both annoyingly not far geographically apart.

 

IF photo was taken at 28 FA ADS Ouderdom Apr 18 (seems more likely now) is this where surgery was performed by the not mentioned Woodsend?

 

Under normal circumstances a front line OR would not be taking a wounded comrade back to an ADS and asking for help but the circumstances are not that normal. The baboon was the SA mascot so perhaps regulations were waived. However, again no official mention of the mascot being wounded found so far. Most SA diaries for Apr 18 are missing though.

 

Then, if surgery took place at the ADS and then evacuated to CCS why the photo of a leg amputated baboon back at the ADS looking otherwise healthy. ADS was quite short lived and had to move.

TEW

[davidbohl]

Will this clip narrow it down, dated 7th Nov 1918 and states the baboon was injured on "Kemmel Hill this year"

Dave

 

From the BNA

Published: Thursday 07 November 1918
Newspaper: Nottingham Journal

 

 

Injury happened on 17th April 1918

 

Published: Friday 25 October 1918
Newspaper: Loughborough Echo

 

Edited 12 June , 2020 by davidbohl

[TEW]

David,

I noticed hits with BNA but don't have a subscription.

 

The date 17/4/18 is a good result plus another source puts them near La Clytte for the injury. The divisional ADS closed at La Clytte and re-opened at Ouderdom on the 17th.

 

I've only just backtracked and realised I wrote 'Hardy' when it should read 'Harty'. Plus my maths went wrong so man in photo is 38? looks older to me, slight worry.

 

TEW

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

...Plus my maths went wrong so man in photo is 38? looks older to me, slight worry...

 

Life back then tended to age people prematurely, so looking a little older to what we might expect nowadays is quite normal.

[Madmeg]

another South african link for you... https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW19190129.2.170.8?items_per_page=10&query=jackie+baboon&snippet=true - the baboon appeared in a victory parade with the South African guns. But I just reread the above newspaper snippet and Pte Marr was a South African so that makes sense.

 

Looks like he retired to SA? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DR29-5LM?i=1695&cc=2063749&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKDCB-JD3  occupation listed in 1922 as "farmer"

 

Edited 13 June , 2020 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

Woodsend- biograpghy on find a grave only says Captain. 1911 is shown as a MET BBS (whatever that is!- metropoliton ? something something) 

BNA gives a number of hits for RN Woodsend who was living in Catterick by the 1930s

 

A thought- could it be that Capt Woodsend performed the operation but C/O Harty got in on the act when it came to the photo? Such things have been known to happen before :-). Therefore the man who was credited with the operation was not the man in the photo- in fact perhaps if he was serving in a medical facility he was not available at wherever the photo was taken?

 

I see from the write up on the SA site above that jackie "sat up and saluted the commanding officer" at hospital- that would probably be TE Harty? fascinating story.

 

Another thought- Jackie had a regimental number- 4927- I've tried a few searches at FMP but its not being very helpful - I've also tried the military medical records (which it DOESN'T seem to search under the military category), but again no luck- but from the write up there should actually be a medical file and associated paperwork...... somewhere.

Edited 13 June , 2020 by Madmeg
additional info

[Madmeg]

Some photos not present on the SA site- google translates it pretty well  - https://archivioroncacci.wordpress.com/2016/11/13/jackie-la-scimmia-che-fu-fatta-caporale/

[davidbohl]

Here's the makeup of Dr R.N.Woodsend's family at his dads funeral in Nottingham 1933, still no signs of a later photie of him.

Dave

 

From the BNA

Published: Saturday 29 July 1933
Newspaper: Nottingham Evening Post

 

[Skipman]

I think this is the service record of Woodsend's son, it might have useful info? Click

 

Mike

[benjamin thyla]

Hi all,

I am fascinated by the Jackie Baboon story too and being a Flemish, I believe I have accessed other source material than native English researchers. Let me share what I found:

1) the war diaries of Father Van Walleghem (the priest of Reningelst) were chronicled dailly and stop ?? april 1918. WW1 Historian Prof D. DenDooven confirms that there is no mention whatsoever in the diaries that a baboon was treated in the parish of Van Walleghem (Ouderdom & La Clytte are parts of Reningelst and 3 km away), making it very unlikely that the baboon was wounded September 17th.

2) A Flemish folk author W. Chielens who gathered second hand witness stories about WW1, always heard telling by locals of Ouderdom that Marr and his baboon Jackie were brought in by stretcher bearers from La Clytte at Ouderdom. Location in Ouderdom unkown.

3) Not far from the junction Kemmelseweg (connecting Kemmel over Reningelst & La Clytte to Ouderdom's Vlamertingseweg) is a farm (°1870), owned by two old men (>80), making them second hand witnesses. Michael de Brabandere has survived his brother-in-law who recently passed away due to COVID-19. He has confirmed us that his farm was "a medical facility" where British casualties were brought, treated and then dispatched by ambulances. Some died there and were buried in the garden, which would be Grootebeek C'y. 

4) Interpreting or "reading" the >100 wargraves of Grootebeek C'y, there have been different peak incidences, but the main peak ("died") starts 1918, April 27th. Which would coincide with the second attack on KEMMEL (B.o. The Lyss). Important to note: 1 SAI grave of Pte D. McArthur, indicates that SAI casualties were brought to this farm - too. 

5) the connection to CCS nr 36 is IMPERATIVE. Because the baboon is transferred to CCS nr 36. We have facts on this matter, because the C/O RAMC Lt-Col of CCS nr 36 provides all the details on the medical condition of Jackie (amputated "here", left foot broken and she is a FEMALE of 4 1/2 years old). This is the info he sends to SAI composite regiment AND the BRCS of Boulogne (June 1918, 4 different notes) to promote Jackie and Marr as fundraisers for the Red Cross in London charity parades

6) so the picture of the Lt-Col (in his fifties I'd say) with the fox terrier and the baboon is the picture that was sent as "an attach" to those fundraiser motivations. It shows us the C/O of CCS nr 36

7) this man is not RAMC Captain RN Woodsend, who published about this anecdote in a Medical Journal called the Practitioner. Capt Woodsend was a young surgeon in 1918, just married to a nurse who continued his medical practice at Gatterick with a retired physician, plus it is his own grandson Hugh who made me aware of my false assumption or biased interpretation of the most iconic picture available in the public domain. Hugh also sent me pictures of his grandfather, with his 4 children. One of his children, Anne, is 101 by now but (I quote Hugh) "sharp as a tack". Last point: RN Woodsend indeed never achieved a higher rank than the one of captain.

8) the iconic picture cannot be taken before the Ouderdom farm, for the simple reason that Woodsend (99% factual) operated the baboon here, but since Jackie was on army strength, put him on an ambulance to "the CCS". We now know that "the CCS" = CCS nr 36 "where the day after the C/O (the man of the picture) went to check upon the baboon, who sat right up in bed and saluted him"

8) Since CCS nr 36 was ordered to close and move to WATTEN (FR) on April 28th (records show peak incidences for CCS 36 April 15th and April 25th) the iconic picture must be taken... in France, in May (or early June). 

9) but the CCS nr 36 diaries note that after April 28th CCS nr 36 remained closed for the whole month of May. With the nurses transferred to CCS 44,  meaning that there was no-one left to treat Jackie. Or did Jackie move to CCS 44 together with the nurses and did it come back to 36 June first?

10) Extremely frustrating is that the name of the C/O Lt-Col, the man on the picture, is nowhere mentioned (typed) in the CCS nr 36 diaries. February 1918 someone who signs with J.S. ------ (6 dashes put by the office clerk) "took over the command of CCS nr 36. Even on the 4 notes regarding Jackie, only his signature above his mil grade (C/O Lieut-Col RAMC Cas Clear Stat Nr 36) is what we see....

11) Together with TEW Major-general we both assumed "JS------" or (once transcripted by the office clerk as) J. Leburn (?), including the question mark; might have been Lt-Col WJS Harvey, because indeed the CCS Nr 36 diaries mention "Lt Col WJS Harvey will lead the parade". But I cannot find "a" WJS Harvey although he must have existed. 

 

Conclusions:

• Most probably date of injury April 1918, 25th (2nd KEMMEL offensive in the battle of the Lyss)
• Brought in with 99% certainty at Ouderdom's DeBrabandere farm (Grootebeek, Vlamertingsewege), confirmed by owner to be "a medical facility ran by a MIL doctor"
• Where the young RAMC Capt Woodsend (surgeon) was in charge
• Woodsend decided to treat, to vaccinate, to label the baboon and put "him" to "the CCS"
• This CCS is undeniably CCS nr 36, was located at Haringhe in April 1918
• The picture taken of the C/O of CCS nr 36 and the baboon, is taken in France, but WHILE CCS Nr 36 was closed for maintenance reasons. So, where was Jackie then treated over this period inbetween?
• It is this C/O (a doctor) who declares "amputation here at CSS (false), left foot broken (true, one can see the Paris cast on the iconic picture), FEMALE (true, a C/O doctor cannot be mistaken on this)" of 4 1/2 years old"
• SAMILhistory strongly disagrees with me on the gender issue: for them Jackie is a "tiny, orphaned male" and that was the reason why Marr took care of "him". Why disguise the gender of an animal? (e.g. compared to Nancy the Springbok, female) But... baboons are sexual very dimorphic, males way up to 50 kg, females between 15-25. There is no way Marr could keep a healthy male baboon on his arm for an extended period of old picture taking with magnesium flashes... Plus, male baboons tend to become aggressive at the age of 2-3 years: Jackie was the sweetest baboon imaginable. Bottomline, the C/O of the iconic picture, knowing Jackie for at least 6 weeks, negociating with SAI regiment and BRCS, CANNOT be mistaken about the gender. Jackie was a girl.
• who is the mistery C/O of CCS Nr 36?????
• Last Question: the final entry in the CCS Nr 36 note of April 28th is, with everyone leaving and patients to be transferred "except the CO Q.M. with sufficient to..." resulting in 10 deaths. WHO OR WHAT IS "Q.M."????????????           

[Terry_Reeves]

QM = Quartermaster

 

TR

[benjamin thyla]

Thank you!