Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

RFT

Seeking National Archive Medal Index Card -

Recommended Posts

RFT

Have searched the National Archive for the Army Medal Index Card (free download) for 291186 A/CSM James McWilliam, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) but failed to locate it!. 

Does it exist (or have I missed it)?  Contemporary press reports, surrounding his death (14th July 1918), suggests he was awarded the Mons Star.

Any help would be appreciated. 

 

This is not a request for a download from any website.

 

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jonbem

on Ancestry there is this one in Soldiers Died

but the number is 

Rank: A C.S.M.
Regiment: Cameronian (Scottish Rifles)
Battalion: Depot
Regimental Number: 291183

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252
RFT
Posted (edited)

Thanks jonbem and to Craig.

 

It seems service number is 291186 (refer to posting below) as quoted in CWGC entry.  He was certainly a Cadet and have yet to determine whether or not his medals were claimed.

 

Have just commenced research into this man despite the fact that the newspaper cuttings surrounding this incident have been available to me for some considerable time.  His death, from suffocation, occurred while engaged in a physical struggle with a Methodist Minister.  Coroners verdict states he was in the Minister's house for an "unlawful purpose, was suffocated and did die" (approx 2.00 am Sunday morning 14th July 1918)!  I have a photograph of the Minister but not the soldier (which I would very much like to secure). 

 

Rob

Edited by RFT
Updated text.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFT

Another link provided by Jrmh - Much appreciated.

 

Your reply came in just as I made my previous post.

 

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFT
56 minutes ago, jonbem said:

on Ancestry there is this one in Soldiers Died

but the number is 

Rank: A C.S.M.
Regiment: Cameronian (Scottish Rifles)
Battalion: Depot
Regimental Number: 291183

 

Have just taken a look on the NA and it appears 291183 relates to John Mcintyre?

Presumably, James McWilliam must be 291186 as listed by CWGC.

 

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFT
35 minutes ago, Jrmh said:

No MIC seems to have been used as official record evidence to create https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/7699349

 

So the card may well be missing!  Thanks again for posting.

 

I would like to get to grips with his medal tally particularly as the newspaper extracts refer to the Mons Star!

 

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PRC
Posted (edited)

Am I missing something folks – surely the six digit service number 291186 or 291183 cannot be a pre-war Cameronians service number? If he got a Mons Star then realistically isn’t it likely he was serving or recalled reservist.

 

The Territorial Force renumbering scheme for 1917 shows 2900001 to 315000 being issued to the 8th Battalion Scottish Rifles.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

 

I would have thought the service numbers 291186/291183 would have been issued for a man in the 2nd Line or 3rd Line units but according to the LLT these no longer existed by this point of the war.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cameronians-scottish-rifles/

 

Unfortunately identifying any previous TF service number prior the renumbering exercise will at best probably only identify when he was posted in, possibly as an experienced ‘old’ soldier brought in to add experience.

 

If he died in July 1918 would his Mons Star award not have already been going through the system? Or would that have been too early?

 

Just gone throught the 35 James McWilliams that have a MiC catalogued at the National Archive but nothing leapt out at me.

 

But is it not possible that his earlier service that meant he qualified for the Mons Star?, (if indeed he did), was earnt with a completely different regiment? Have local newspapers been checked  for earlier references to him - for example when he was selected for officer training?

 

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252
11 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

But is it not possible that his earlier service that meant he qualified for the Mons Star?, (if indeed he did), was earnt with a completely different regiment? Have local newspapers been checked  for earlier references to him - for example when he was selected for officer training?

Quite possibly.


Normally the war gratuity helps here but they've not listed it separately on the effects.

Quote

If he died in July 1918 would his Mons Star award not have already been going through the system? Or would have been too early?

 

Authorised Nov 1917 but I don't know when they started issuing them.

 

Craig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PRC
14 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Authorised Nov 1917 but I don't know when they started issuing them.

 

Thanks Craig.

 

I may have mis-remembered but feels like there have been several photo's recently that have been provisionally dated to no earlier than summer 1918 because individuals in them are wearing their Mons medal ribbon. Of course 'summer' is a pretty broad target :)

 

Cheers,

Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFT

Extract from 24 July 1918 newspaper -

 

"A lieutenant from Catterick Camp identified the body as that of James McWilliam, a cadet, whose home was at Denistoune.  He said the deceased was a motor man before enlisting, having been a regular soldier.  He was 34 years of age, a very quiet man and a good soldier.  He had been at the front two years and nine months, was company sergeant major and had the Mons Star.  He had not been wounded, and there was nothing in his report about shell shock."

 

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kenf48
13 minutes ago, PRC said:

Am I missing something folks – surely the six digit service number 291186 or 291183 cannot be a pre-war Cameronians service number? If he got a Mons Star then realistically isn’t it likely he was serving or recalled reservist.

 

You beat me to it, the account of the inquest in the Yorkshire Post July 17, 1918, an officer stated he had 'been at the Front' for two years and nine months, or 1915. If all that time he had been with the 1/8, they did not serve in France until April 1918.  The 14 Star (Mons Star) was instituted in November 1917, the 14-15 Star in December 1918, after his death. Perhaps the lieutenant was gilding the lily a little to deflect any blame from the Army.

 

In any event, in addition to the suggestions above, as the Coroner ordered a verdict that 'the deceased whilst in Mr Tregoning's house for an unlawful purpose did suffocate and die" would render any medals forfeit as he was described as a 'supposed burglar'. 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Keith_history_buff
2 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The effects has him as a Cadet at the point of death


Do the details in the Register of Soldiers' Effects disprove him having prior military service? i found it difficult to reconcile the idea of him being an Old Contemptible yet having a TF six digit number, although 1/5th Bn did arrive in France on 5 November 1914.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jonbem
Posted (edited)

there is a pension record (Fold3 - I don't have access) via ancestry

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=21376101&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CUH5664&_phstart=successSource

Name: James McWilliams
Gender: Male
Rank: Cadet C.S.M.
Record Type: Card
Service Number: 291186
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Scottish Rifles
Edited by jonbem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252
5 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:


Do the details in the Register of Soldiers' Effects disprove him having prior military service? i found it difficult to reconcile the idea of him being an Old Contemptible yet having a TF six digit number, although 1/5th Bn did arrive in France on 5 November 1914.

 

By itself it gives no evidence either way in the effects.


Craig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFT
Posted (edited)

According to the Derby Daily Telegraph (16 July 1918) - At the time of the incident James McWilliam was in uniform and wearing the Mons ribbon!

Edited by RFT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252
5 minutes ago, jonbem said:

there is a pension record (Fold3 - I don't have access) via ancestry

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=21376101&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CUH5664&_phstart=successSource

Name: James McWilliams
Gender: Male
Rank: Cadet C.S.M.
Record Type: Card
Service Number: 291186
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Scottish Rifles

image.png

https://www.fold3.com/image/669198041?xid=1022

 

No details given regading service other than his number and rank.

 

Being a CSM in 1918 would certainly tie in with earlier service.

 

Craig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jonbem
25 minutes ago, RFT said:

whose home was at Denistoune

anyone located this place?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFT
3 minutes ago, jonbem said:

there is a pension record (Fold3 - I don't have access) via ancestry

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=21376101&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CUH5664&_phstart=successSource

Name: James McWilliams
Gender: Male
Rank: Cadet C.S.M.
Record Type: Card
Service Number: 291186
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Scottish Rifles

 

Many thanks.  Seemingly now searching for James McWilliams! 

 

I'll have to resubscribe to Fold3 as I too don't have current access to Ancestry.

 

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jonbem
Posted (edited)

a service record for a man with different number although the age would omit him

HERE

Name: James McWilliam
[James McWilliams] 
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1899
Enlistment Age: 19
Document Year: 1918
Residence Place: 51 Hamilton Road, Cambuslang
Regimental Number: 54581
Regiment Name: Cameronian (Scottish Rifles)
Edited by jonbem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jonbem
Posted (edited)

Is this him on CWGC?

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/408940/mcwilliam,-james/

Hipswell is at Catterick

Company Serjeant MajorMCWILLIAM, JAMES

Service Number 291186

Died 14/07/1918

Aged 34

Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

Son of Peter and Margaret McWilliam, of Huntly, Aberdeenshire; husband of Annie McWilliam, of 326, Duke St., Glasgow.

Edited by jonbem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFT
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, jonbem said:

anyone located this place?

 

Faded newspaper print - Denistoune may well be Denistone or Donistone.

Edited by RFT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kenf48

Not exact science but 291116 was 1028 8th Bn so + 70 = 291186  = 1098.

1099 enlisted 7.10.15.  and most of the 2911** seem to have enlisted Sept/Oct  1915 ,which is around 2 years 9 months service

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...