1st Garrison Btn. Sherwood Foresters in Gallipoli?

[Sue S]

Over the years I have made several attempts to make progress with my grandfather's (Harold John Douglas Pyke's war service). I have his trio, all Notts and Derbs. His first theatre is given as 2(B) Balkans and date as 24-10-1915. At some time he transferred to the 2nd Loyal North Lancs. His roll gives his battalion as 1st Garrison Battalion Notts and Derbs. The only other concrete information I have is a report and photograph in our local newspaper in June 1916 showing that he was in hospital in Port Said suffering from appendicitis. 

 

According to many sites, the only Notts and Derbs battalion to serve in Gallipoli was the 9th, and the 1st Garrison Battalion remained in Egypt throughout the war. Having contacted various people the judgement was that the theatre was incorrectly recorded on grandad's roll and MIC. Studying the rolls, a number of men transferred from the 1st Garrison Battalion Notts and Derbs to the Loyal North Lancs and all those I looked at had a first theatre as 2(B). Is that a mistake on all their record cards, presumably made by one individual? 

 

Just when I was about to give up, I discovered that five men of the 1st Garrison Battalion Notts and Derbs are buried at Hill 10 Cemetery. Suvla. All died 26-11-1915 when a dug-out collapsed on them in a heavy storm. 

 

One final thing to add is that a newspaper report at the time of his son's death on active service in 1944 says of grandad "During his four year service with the South Staffords and Loyal North Lancashire Regiment Mr Pyke was in France (where he was wounded) at the Dardanelles and in Palestine."

 

I would welcome anyone's thoughts on this. I looked for the war diary but without success. Kind regards Sue

[PRC]

57 minutes ago, Sue S said:

"During his four year service with the South Staffords and Loyal North Lancashire Regiment Mr Pyke was in France (where he was wounded) at the Dardanelles and in Palestine."

 

I see Harold Pyke was service numbers 30082 when he was with the Sherwood Foresters.

 

If the Medal Rolls have been completed correctly then only units served with overseas would be shown – so if the South Staffords battalion he was part of was home service only or he was transferred before they went overseas then they won’t feature. One source that can sometime help in the absence of service records is Soldiers Died in the Great War (SDGW)

 

Looking at the men who died when the dug-out collapsed, I can see that for Private 29259 George Smith, SDGW has him as formerly 13652 Lincolnshire Regiment.

That number and regiment is not shown on that’s soldiers MiC.

 

Turning to CWGC and looking for men who died whilst serving with the Sherwood Foresters in the Great War and had a service number starting 300* brings up 44 matches, but weeding down to the 5 digit ones gives you

30016 Private W H Round – no former number shown on SDGW.

30038 Private A Keay – possibly post discharge. UK burial and no match on SDGW

30044 Private John McConvil – SDGW as McConvill and formerly 15737 South Staffs.

30099 Private Henry Millington – SDGW shows formerly 13315 Lincolnshire Regiment.

 

To give a bit more data I tried the start of the 31xxx service number range.

31005 Serjeant James Robert Batten – SDGW as 31055 and no former number.

31009 Private Albert Wilkinson – no former number shown on SDGW.

 

So not much to go on, but looking at McConvil \ McConvill there could have been a batch of ex-Staffs men who were transferred over – the 300xx series men who died all appear to be in their mid-thirties, so just the sort that made up the core of Garrison Battalions.

 

If you have the time may be worth using the MiC record and service medal roll for the Sherwood Forester service numbers between 30044 John McConvil(l) and 30082 Harold Pryke to then see if any service records survive that can show the likely path they followed.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[michaeldr]

From Westlake's 'British Regiments at Gallipoli' page 171

 

The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment)

1st Garrison Battalion

July

Formed at Lichfield

October

to Malta then Egypt

November

War Diary of 2/10 Middlesex Regiment records (9th) 4 officers, 200 other ranks attached for fatigues at Lala Baba defences, Suvla

 

Looks to me like he could well have been at Suvla

regards

Michael

Edited 7 June , 2020 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

As indicated in Westlake

WO 95/4323 - HQ 160^th Infantry Brigade, 53^rd Division, page 40, the entry for 9^th November 1915 gives

“Middlesex Battalion detailed to find beach-duties. Notts and Derby Garrison Regiment attached to Middlesex Regiment”

 

 

 

That same file has on page 121, the 2/10^th Middlesex Regt War Diary entry for 9^th November giving

“Attached:- 4 officers 200 Other Ranks 1^st Garrison Battalion, Notts & Derby Regiment"

 

Edited 7 June , 2020 by michaeldr

[Sue S]

Thank you gentlemen. I am delighted to finally have an explanation which makes sense and is evidenced based. Kind regards Sue

[Sue S]

I have now completed my grandad's story thanks to your help. It is one of the positive things I will remember from life in lockdown. Thanks again. Sue

[michaeldr]

53 minutes ago, Sue S said:

I have now completed my grandad's story thanks to your help. It is one of the positive things I will remember from life in lockdown

 

That's great Sue, and so nice for you and your family

Good Luck and keep well

[Guest]

I happened to get on this website by pure luck. I have been researching my Family history and found out that my Grand Uncle, my Grandfathers brother was killed at Gallipoli on 25-11-1915, however, I did have a place of death as F & F as well, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that Sue S, was researching her Grandfather (Harold John Douglas Pyke) and had came across my Grand Uncle, George Smith 29259 of Notts & Derby, formally 13652 of Lincolnshire Regiment, who had died on 25-11-1915 along with 4 other Soldiers when a dug out collapsed on them during a heavy storm, from what I can understand by Sue S's revelation My Grand Uncle George Smith was attached to the Middlesex Regiment by this time, and they had been assigned to Beach duties. 

Would this have been a common thing for soldiers to be transferred to different Regiments during the course of WW1, also I note that there was several mentions of the abbreviation (MiC) which I do not know what this means. If anyone could elaborate on my enquiry with anymore information I would be very grateful

[michaeldr]

On 07/06/2020 at 13:19, PRC said:

Looking at the men who died when the dug-out collapsed, I can see that for Private 29259 George Smith, SDGW has him as formerly 13652 Lincolnshire Regiment.

That number and regiment is not shown on that’s soldiers MiC.

 

30 minutes ago, Dougieboy said:

I note that there was several mentions of the abbreviation (MiC) which I do not know what this means.

 

This is your relative's MiC [Medal Index Card] which is available via the National Archives (and is their copyright)

It shows that he entered the theatre of war on 7th November 1915

and it confirms that he was entitled to three medals; Victory, Brtitish War Medal & the 1914-15 Star

 

 

Edited 14 December , 2020 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, Dougieboy said:

Would this have been a common thing for soldiers to be transferred to different Regiments during the course of WW1,

 

If this is a ref to the Notts & Derby men being attached to the Middlesex Regt., then while this was not common, it was not unusual either for men to be 'attached' as and when the need arose, and especially on Gallipoli where casualties (killed, wounded or sick) could not be easily replaced in the orthodox manner.

I've had a further look at the 160^th Brigade War Diary. The WD does mention the storm and the fact that “During the last month [November] the 160^th Brigade has been in the Divisional Reserve and has merely been used for fatigues in connection with the Lala Baba Defences.”

However, there is no mention of the incident on 25^th November

 

[William H]

I am researching Bernard Valentine McGarvey who was a temp. 2nd lieutenant in the 1st Garrison Battalion of the Notts and Derby Regiment. I have at least two other records saying that he was at Gallipoli. I assume he was one of the four officers attached to the Middlesex Regiment at Suvla Bay. He had an extended period of illness (gastritis) whereby he lost 42lbs of weight. The medical board attributed it to the field conditions in Gallipoli.  He also had a knee problem from an athletics injury in 1912 which is why he was in a garrison battalion (he was only 23 years old). Thanks to this thread I have the reason why he was there. His WO339 file says that he was at Gallipoli from 4/11/1915 to 19/12/1915. Those dates are probably between leaving and returning to Egypt.

I am thinking of going to Kew to look at the War Diaries for the 2/10th Middlesex and the 1st Garrison Notts & Derby unless anyone already has a copy.

[michaeldr]

Until you get to Kew, this is from Ray Westlake's 'British Regiments at Gallipoli' page 179/180 on 2/10th Battalion (TF) Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment)

"Four officers, 200 other ranks from 1st Garrison Battalion, Sherwood Foresters attached 9th (November)

December - Evacuated 13th, sailing 'El Kahira' for Lemnos"

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 February , 2023 by michaeldr

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, William H said:

am thinking of going to Kew to look at the War Diaries for the 2/10th Middlesex and the 1st Garrison Notts & Derby unless anyone already has a copy.

The Gallipoli War Diaries are on Ancestry if you subscribe or probably free to access at your local library

2/10 Middlesex starts here

Whilst Egypt was a theatre of war and therefore there was an obligation to maintain a war diary the 1st Garrison Bn were Force Troops and it appears their diary is patchy, to say the least. The only reference is at TNA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557609 for the period February 1918 - May 1919.  Not digitised as yet.

Once attached any mention for the Dardanelles would be in the 2/10 Middlesex Diary

 

[michaeldr]

Westlake also has a couple of lines on the 1st Garrison Battalion, Sherwood Foresters, see page 171:-

July - formed at Litchfield 

October - to Malta then Egypt

November - as per previous post above, with added comment "attached for fatigues at Lala Baba defences, Suvla."

 

 

Edited 28 February , 2023 by michaeldr

[William H]

Thanks chaps. The war diary I was going for was WO95/4435 not yet digitised, according to TNA and yes the 2/10 Middlesex WO95/4323 while I am there. I will report back if there's anything more to add. I have a copy of Westlake now.

The odd thing is that the medical problems B.V. McGarvey had, started when he went back home on leave to Ireland in August 1916. The medical board report from 23.9.16 in Belfast says "He is very easily tired, has a poor appetite has lost 42lb in weight. He also suffers from coughs(?) in the mornings. His present condition has followed an attack of gastritus contracted in Egypt after service in Gallipoli.: cause: Strain and privation of active service." So maybe he got the illness in Egypt rather than Gallipoli.

B.V. McGarvey is quite a distant relative, but I realised that my own grandfather was also around Suvla bay in the Gloucestershire Hussars as a trooper earlier in 1915. I now understand why he never talked about it. I remember my grandmother showing me a lead ball about half an inch across that he had picked up while he was there. Some sort of grape shot?

 

[michaeldr]

17 hours ago, William H said:

Some sort of grape shot

A shrapnel ball

see http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Shrapnel-Shell.html

Edited 1 March , 2023 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

Entry in War Diary of HQ, 160th Infantry Brigade, 53rd (Welsh) Division, for  
9th November 1915:
“Middlesex Battalion detailed to find beach-duties. Notts and Derby Garrison Regiment attached to Middlesex Regiment.”
At the end of the 'November 1915' diary there is the note that 
“During the last month the 160th Brigade has been in the Divisional Reserve and has merely been used for fatigues in connection with the Lala Baba Defences,”
The 160th Brigade WD for 13th December 1915 confirms the evacuation to Mudros (island of Lemnos) but gives the name of the transport as HMT Alcahara

Looking further at the December WD of the 160th Brigade, then the possible/probable (?) next moves for the 1st Garrison Sherwood Forresters would be
14th Dec '15 Arrived Mudros. Transferred to HMT Haverford
15th Dec '15 Haverford sailed for Alexandria at 16.30
19th Dec '15 Arrived Alexandria at 15.00, Entrained for Wardan (Beri Salam Camp) & arrived 20.00/22.00

The WD of 2/10th Middlesex Regiment confirms
9-11-15 Attached:- 4 Officers 200 Other Ranks 1st Garrison Battalion, Notts & Derby Regiment
1st to 13th Dec '15 “Employed on fatigue duty on Defences of Lala Baba
13th Dec '15 Embarked at South Pier, Suvla Bay, on lighter, transhipped to HT El Kahira 
14th Dec '15 Arrived at Mudros & transhipped to HMT Haverford for Alexandria
15th Dec '15 Left for Alexandria
19th Dec '15 07.30 Arrived at Alexandria and entrained for Wardan
19th Dec '15 23.00 Arrived at Wardan

NOTES: 
I haven't found a specific WD for 1st Garrison Battalion, Sherwood Forresters at Gallipoli
HMT Alcahara & HT El Kahira refer to the same ship, the latter being correct: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_El_Kahira

The maps below will give you an idea of the area where temp. 2nd Lieutenant Bernard Valentine McGarvey was during this time 

 

 

Edited 1 March , 2023 by michaeldr

[William H]

Michael, that's really very kind of you and very helpful. Thank you. I will go to Kew and look at the WD for the 1 Garrison Batt Sherwood Foresters which should cover it from their perspective. On a related matter, I remember as a young child my grandfather telling me how the horses were frightened on the transport ships. Recall he was in the Gloucester Yeomanry/Hussars also at Suvla Bay.

[sherren]

I came across these posts while researching an unrelated matter and thought I would share that the 1st Garrison Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters appears on panel 274 of the Helles Memorial located on the Southern end of the Gallipoli Peninsula. The panel can be located by using the CWGC plan which I have attached here along with a picture.
My unrelated interest is with respect to the Royal Newfoundland Regiment and trying to determine why they have been included as 'Unallotted Troops' as Battle Orders specifically attached them to the 88th Brigade of the 29th Division...but that's another story and I mention it only in case someone else reading this can shed some light on that.