Help identifying coat

[MeallMhor]

Apologies if this is a very basic question, but I was hoping for some help attaching a name to what seems to be a fairly common style of coat worn during WWI.

 

When visiting my grandparents I used to regularly look a photo of my great-grandfather, 2nd Lieutenant Adam Lindsay of the Royal Scots 13th Battalion, who died of his wounds on the 1st of August 1918 and is buried in Senlis. In the photo he is wearing what looks like a lighter cotton, possibly single-breasted, trench coat or knee length coat of some kind.

 

When I was watching 1917 the other day I noticed Mark Strong as Captain Smith seemed to be wearing something very similar. I was wondering if there is a standard designation for this type of coat and if there are any originals or replicas available anywhere? Thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

It’s a type of “Trench-coat” made using a waterproofed cotton gabardine material, often with a removable light woollen lining.  Two companies vie with each other to this day as to which of them ‘invented’ the coat, Burberry and Aquascutum.

 

The Trenchcoat has since then become an iconic winter item on the catwalk, especially on willowy, slender women, where it is often worn with the belt stylishly knotted rather than the buckle fastened.

 

Edited 5 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MeallMhor]

Thanks very much for the reply. Do you know if there are any replicas or even something close (aside from the more common fashion items) available anywhere?

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, MeallMhor said:

Thanks very much for the reply. Do you know if there are any replicas or even something close (aside from the more common fashion items) available anywhere?

It depends on how accurate you want to be.

 

A contemporary Burberry or Aquascutum are over £1,000 to buy new.

 

There were Marks & Spencer’s types very close to the original that you can buy online or in charity shops.  This is what I would do.

 

Specialists who supply re-enactors, mainly supplied from China, are also quite expensive: http://onlinemilitaria.com/products/5041-Early-Style-Trench-Coat/?bc=no

 

If you look online you can also find modern copies made from polyester. 
 

1. https://forcesuniformandkit.co.uk/products/dutch-khaki-mens-military-trench-coat?variant=28031723649&currency=GBP&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google+shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI68LAuITr6QIVFJ3VCh0qIQD7EAkYAiABEgIvlfD_BwE
 

2.  https://forcesuniformandkit.co.uk/products/spanish-olive-military-style-trench-coat-full-length-new?variant=27898730709086&currency=GBP&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google+shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI68LAuITr6QIVFJ3VCh0qIQD7EAkYBSABEgJjFvD_BwE

Edited 5 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MeallMhor]

Thanks again for the information. I'll have a look for the M&S ones and see if there are any around just now.

 

Also (sorry for the jarring change of tone) if 2nd Lieutenant Lindsay died on the 1st of August 1918 is it quite likely this was during the Allied counter-offensive in the Second Battle of the Marne?

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, MeallMhor said:

Thanks again for the information. I'll have a look for the M&S ones and see if there are any around just now.

 

Also (sorry for the jarring change of tone) if 2nd Lieutenant Lindsay died on the 1st of August 1918 is it quite likely this was during the Allied counter-offensive in the Second Battle of the Marne?

1.  Search: Marks and Spencer mens beige trench coat

 

2.  No, the counter offensive began on the 8th of August, so he was probably killed (I imagine) by the ‘harassing fire’ of German artillery in the weeks preceding the opening of the attack.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MeallMhor]

 

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

1.  Search: Marks and Spencer mens beige trench coat

 

2.  No, the counter offensive began on the 8th of August, so he was probably killed I imagine by harassing fire by German artillery in the weeks preceding the opening of the attack.

 

Thanks again, I'll tell my Mum and my Aunt and Uncle this was the probable scenario as they have been curious about this for years.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by MeallMhor
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, MeallMhor said:

T

 

Thanks again, I'll tell my Mum and my Aunt and Uncle this was the probable scenario as they have been curious about this for years.

Despite excellent security and masking of British preparations for the counter-offensive, and British air superiority that inhibited German air reconnaissance, the Germans inevitably became aware of some unusual activity along their frontage and their excellent artillery did fire searching and harassing bombardments of British rear areas with the specific intent of disruption.  This led to casualties among those unlucky enough to be caught in the open without shelter.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[DavidOwen]

A belated welcome to the forum from me

 

If you haven't already have it his service record is at Kew https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C712329

After the lockdown you could visit or arrange for an independent researcher to copy it for you.

[MeallMhor]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Despite excellent security and masking of British preparations for the counter-offensive, and British air superiority that inhibited German air reconnaissance, the Germans inevitably became aware of some unusual activity along their frontage and their excellent artillery did fire searching and harassing bombardments of British rear areas with the specific intent of disruption.  This led to casualties among those unlucky enough to be caught in the open without shelter.

 

3 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

A belated welcome to the forum from me

 

If you haven't already have it his service record is at Kew https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C712329

After the lockdown you could visit or arrange for an independent researcher to copy it for you.

 

Thanks for the welcome and for the assistance. Great-grandpa Lindsay's war record is more familiar in the family than my grandpa's father, Alec White, who was a stretcher-bearer and seemed to suffer from what would now be called PTSD and my grandpa remembered him having a terrible temper.

 

I might suggest my Aunt goes to visit Kew since she has carried out a lot of family history research. I work in a local authority archive but I have little experience in either the National Archives or the National Records of Scotland.

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, MeallMhor said:

 

 

Thanks for the welcome and for the assistance. Great-grandpa Lindsay's war record is more familiar in the family than my grandpa's father, Alec White, who was a stretcher-bearer and seemed to suffer from what would now be called PTSD and my grandpa remembered him having a terrible temper.

 

I might suggest my Aunt goes to visit Kew since she has carried out a lot of family history research. I work in a local authority archive but I have little experience in either the National Archives or the National Records of Scotland.

Good luck with your research.

 

If you’re searching for a Trenchcoat for yourself and want to achieve the same ‘look’ as in the 1917 film you should aim to size one up from what you might usually wear, e.g. if usually a 38” chest go for a 40”, as this will give you the correct fit. The coats were designed for layering over a uniform that often included a woollen undergarment in winter.  This did not give the kind of svelte appearance of a modern fitting, and was cinched in with the belt when worn over less layers.  Also consider whether you prefer single or double breasted. The latter has become more associated with the iconic garment, but both styles were equally common and contemporaneous.  There were also shorter versions that did not drag around the legs so much in the trenches.  There was no generally set pattern and it was down to individual, or occasionally unit, preference.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[squirrel]

Worth a search for Dutch Army Trench Coats modern materials -but they look the part and prices are reasonable.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, squirrel said:

Worth a search for Dutch Army Trench Coats modern materials -but they look the part and prices are reasonable.

Yes, I enclosed a link to one in post #4.

[squirrel]

Apologies -didn't look that far back - here is one of the Dutch Army" trench" coats.

[MeallMhor]

I've been having a look at those scenes in the film again and I noticed a few things:

 

The coat is definitely single-breasted.

 

It doesn't have a belt.

 

It has two front flap pockets and doesn't appear to have any others unless there's an inside pocket.

 

It doesn't have a shoulder flap or any other adornments apart from epaulettes.

 

It looks like it has some kind of brass hook closure at the neck.

 

Daniel Mays' character also wears one at the beginning of the film.

 

It doesn't really look like the traditional image of the trench coat, which made me even more curious about getting something closer to it.

[MeallMhor]

It actually looks more like an earlier version of this:

 

https://www.airministrybybuttons.net/british-postwar/british-army-1952-pattern-officers-mackintosh

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, MeallMhor said:

I've been having a look at those scenes in the film again and I noticed a few things:

 

The coat is definitely single-breasted.

 

It doesn't have a belt.

 

It has two front flap pockets and doesn't appear to have any others unless there's an inside pocket.

 

It doesn't have a shoulder flap or any other adornments apart from epaulettes.

 

It looks like it has some kind of brass hook closure at the neck.

 

Daniel Mays' character also wears one at the beginning of the film.

 

It doesn't really look like the traditional image of the trench coat, which made me even more curious about getting something closer to it.

Your description sounds like a traditional Mackintosh.  They generally had a rubber lining.  But there was a similar coat they made just of proofed cotton (gabardine) without the rubber.  The belts were removable and not always used in the trenches as they snagged easily.  There were rival makers such as Grenfell doing the exact same thing of course. 

 

“In 1830 Macintosh's company merged with the clothing company of Thomas Hancockin Manchester. Hancock had also been experimenting with rubber coated fabrics since 1819. Production of rubberised coats soon spread all over the UK. Every kind of coat was produced with rubberized material including riding coats and coats supplied to the British Army, British railways, and UK police forces.”

 

See: https://www.mackintosh.com/is/brand-story

Edited 6 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE