290580 Gunner William Tickner 141st HB RGA

[Derek Tickner]

Im trying to find any info however small about the 141st Heavy Battery RGA which my Grandad William Tickner was in from March 1916 to his medical discharge in June 1918 during the Spring Offensive in Beaumont Hamel.

Questions I'm after are Campaigns prior to the Spring Offensive with the 141st.

Were they Horse drawn or mechanical?

Training camps the RGA attended

[mancpal]

Derek,

You can currently download the relevant war diaries from the National Archive free of charge. Subject to the correct one/ones having been digitised you should be able to ascertain the day by day movements of his unit. Have you searched Ancestry on the off chance his service record has survived

 

Simon

Edited 1 June , 2020 by mancpal

[Derek Tickner]

Hi Mancpal,

I've got information off Ancestry like his Medal Card,dates of his injuries and the Field Ambulance,I have a photocopy of his Discharge papers,its his early Campaigns prior to Beaumont Hamel for the Spring Offensive,the middle photo I've uploaded has Arras written on the back.....

[ororkep]

Derek,

way back in 2014 this topic was discussed on forum. The image is of 141 Hvy Bty ( and answers your question if horse drawn or mechanical) from the book held at the IWM (see below)

Rgds Paul

 

[MaxD]

Loose ends

This link shows the RGA training establishments http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/royal-artillery-depots-training-and-home-defence-units/

 

Heavy batteries were subordinated to Heavy Artillery Groups (aka Brigades RGA for a period of the war) and moved between them (either physically or simply by changing communication links) as the battles dictated.  The allocation of batteries to HAGs shows 13 (if I counted correctly!) changes of HAG between April 1916 and the end of the war.  These can be found in WO 95/5494_2 at the National Archives.  With one exception (below) the battery did not produce its own diary hence the usefulness of the book cited earlier.

 

The HAG diaries are listed as Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery at the National Archives so to follow his whole service you need to download all the relevant diaries.  From December 1917 the battery was with 86 HAG and remained there so the particular period you are interested in is in that one diary.

 

It is listed as 86 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery and can be found here: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/49946a2b163f46bc947f8885beea5797  It covers all the batteries allocated to it so detail is often sparse.

 

The battery did produce one diary of its own, for Sep/Oct 1917 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/bf9c135893eb4de5ab830b5cf2903ab4

 

Good luck!

 

Max

[Derek Tickner]

Hi Max

Sorry I've been offline for some months now,many thanks for the info which I have downloaded,it covers the dates my Grandad was in action,

I am going to Beaumont Hamel next April with a very good ex RAF Regiment mate who is leading the War walk,ive been assured it will be full of information......and beer

Regards

Derek

[MaxD]

Hello Derek

 

 

Delighted to hear it!  Were you able to establish where the battery was exactly when he was injured in 1918? You say you have the dates of the Field Ambulance - is that related to 1918 also?

 

Max

[clk]

Hi Derek,

 

On 01/06/2020 at 21:04, Derek Tickner said:

medical discharge in June 1918

 

His SWB record indicates that he wasn't actually discharged until March 1919

 

Images sourced from Ancestry

 

For 'Para 392' - see here.

 

As mentioned by Max, did you find all of of war diaries at the National Archives associated with his unit allocation?

Image sourced from the National Archives

 

If the diaries make reference to the HAG (Heavy Artillery Group - Brigade RGA) being under the control of a specific Division for the time of their allocation, it may be worth downloading the diary of the Commander Royal Artillery of that Division; and the Division HQ (General Staff) diary, as they will probably add a lot more context for you.

 

If you need any help on reading map references, there is advice here.

 

Fold3 have a pension claim index card which indicates that he had a disability that was accepted as being due to his war service to his left leg, I can't quite make out what precedes that - possibly a shortening of  'amputated' ?????

Image sourced from Fold3

 

Are any of the records that you have, for example a date of wounding, taken from Forces War Records?

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

Edited 27 September , 2020 by clk

[Derek Tickner]

Hi Chris many thanks for the info.

Yes I found the diaries of the 141st and the it 86th which mentions the 141st.

My grandad did sustain a light fracture of the tibua/fibia but they amputated his leg for some reason,possibly complications due to the lack of hygiene.

[Derek Tickner]

On 27/09/2020 at 09:48, MaxD said:

Hello Derek

 

 

Delighted to hear it!  Were you able to establish where the battery was exactly when he was injured in 1918? You say you have the dates of the Field Ambulance - is that related to 1918 also?

 

Max

Hi Max

My grandad had his injury on 14/7/18 and was transferred to the 3rd Field Ambulance , (id like to know where they were based?),where he stayed till he was moved to the 42nd Ambulance train (where the station was?), on the 16/7/18 where to I don't know,that's going to be a problem,possibly to Dover??Then there's going to be where he had his rehab.

[kevinrowlinson]

10 hours ago, Derek Tickner said:

My grandad had his injury on 14/7/18 and was transferred to the 3rd Field Ambulance , (id like to know where they were based?),where he stayed till he was moved to the 42nd Ambulance train (where the station was?), on the 16/7/18 where to I don't know,that's going to be a problem,possibly to Dover??Then there's going to be where he had his rehab.

 

Out of curiosity may I ask you from what date you can tie him to 141 HB for the duration of the war. His number would indicate it was not his original unit.

 

Kevin

[MaxD]

3 FA relieved 91 FA at the Corps Main Dressing Station at Bac du Sud on 6 July 1918.  Square Q 32 on:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=50.22809&lon=2.60701&layers=101465107&b=1  Details from the war diary of 3 FA WO 95/1207 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351825

 

The war diary of 42 AT http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/7445bc92d28f493b971c74af6c25723f

 

3 FA is on Ancestry, both diaries can be downloaded free at the moment.

 

Do you have the location of his battery at the time?

 

Max

[Derek Tickner]

13 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

 

Out of curiosity may I ask you from what date you can tie him to 141 HB for the duration of the war. His number would indicate it was not his original unit.

 

Kevin

Hi Kevin my grandad joined up 10/4/15,at 17 yrs old,his initial service number was 297 and his overseas number was 290580,when he went out to France in 1916...records on the Long Trail put him with the 138th but all his records show he was with the 141st as it says on his medal card and discharge papers,im after any info however small to find out his movements

Derek

[Derek Tickner]

8 hours ago, Derek Tickner said:

Hi Kevin my grandad joined up 10/4/15,at 17 yrs old,his initial service number was 297 and his overseas number was 290580,when he went out to France in 1916...records on the Long Trail put him with the 138th but all his records show he was with the 141st as it says on his medal card and discharge papers,im after any info however small to find out his movements

Derek

My mistake Kevin it was the 38th Welsh HB,that would certainly tie in as he was from and enlisted in Caerphilly South Wales,all the paperwork links him to the 141st...could it be 'Battlefield transfer'......now the plot thickens

Derek

[KONDOA]

22 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

 

Out of curiosity may I ask you from what date you can tie him to 141 HB for the duration of the war. His number would indicate it was not his original unit.

 

Kevin

The number may be 146 HB (3rd Hull).

[kevinrowlinson]

1 hour ago, KONDOA said:

The number may be 146 HB (3rd Hull).

 

Anything is possible, but the number is consistent with those allocated to to 38 HB.

 

10 hours ago, Derek Tickner said:

but all his records show he was with the 141st as it says on his medal card and discharge papers,im after any info however small to find out his movements

 

You are correct that you can only research a known battery, but unfortunately it is impossible to definitively say when he was transferred to 141 HB. 38 HB also went out at the end of March 1916.

 

Kevin

[KONDOA]

Yes Kev, I don't have my lists available.

[MaxD]

141 HB would certainly add up in terms of location in July 1918.  The war diary of 86 Brigade RGA records, on 14 July 1918, "two sections of 141 HB were put on 600m railway siding near Bailleulval (Dominion siding) and for one week were engaged on night harassing fire  from a specially prepared spur **....... Bac du Sud (the location of the FA) is essentially on the railway in Q 32 1500 yards from Bailleuval.

 

Max

 

 

** the grid reference given in the diary is Q 23 which is clearly a transposition of numbers given where the railway runs and the proximity to Bailleuval

[Derek Tickner]

2 hours ago, MaxD said:

141 HB would certainly add up in terms of location in July 1918.  The war diary of 86 Brigade RGA records, on 14 July 1918, "two sections of 141 HB were put on 600m railway siding near Bailleulval (Dominion siding) and for one week were engaged on night harassing fire  from a specially prepared spur **....... Bac du Sud (the location of the FA) is essentially on the railway in Q 32 1500 yards from Bailleuval.

 

Max

 

 

** the grid reference given in the diary is Q 23 which is clearly a transposition of numbers given where the railway runs and the proximity to Bailleuval

Hi Max ive downloaded the diaries of the 141 and 86 along with the field ambulance and ambulance train, im gettin excellent feedback from you guys which im eternally grateful,i now have another headache his service number doesn't correlate with the 141st it looks like the 38th HB South Wales...as he was from Caerphilly in S Wales seems the likely,i read old topics and seems a lot were posted to different Batteries....im now lost,im considering getting his Service records from the MOD but was told a lot got destroyed by Adolfs lot...

Derek

[MaxD]

Derek

 

The MoD don't have his records, they are still holding post 1920 records and your man was discharged in 1919. 

 

I'd suggest it is time to review what solid information there is for your man.

 

I find his medal card and the associated medal roll, neither of which list his unit.  You have posted the pension card which also does not have his unit.  His SWB record shows his enlistment and his discharge dates but again no unit.

 

His numbers are indeed consistent not just with his start at least in 38 Heavy Battery as Kevin has pointed out but also from the locality other near numbers came from in Wales.  Again, as Kevin also says, there is no reason at all why he might not have transferred at some time later.

 

What I don't see is the evidence you have for 141 HB and the Field Ambulance.  His medal card doesn't have his unit as you said in an earlier post and do you have his own discharge papers - I see nothing on line.  Where does "records on Longlongtrail put him in the 138th but all his records show......" (your quote) come from?

 

Max

 

 

 

[Derek Tickner]

19 hours ago, MaxD said:

Derek

 

The MoD don't have his records, they are still holding post 1920 records and your man was discharged in 1919. 

 

I'd suggest it is time to review what solid information there is for your man.

 

I find his medal card and the associated medal roll, neither of which list his unit.  You have posted the pension card which also does not have his unit.  His SWB record shows his enlistment and his discharge dates but again no unit.

 

His numbers are indeed consistent not just with his start at least in 38 Heavy Battery as Kevin has pointed out but also from the locality other near numbers came from in Wales.  Again, as Kevin also says, there is no reason at all why he might not have transferred at some time later.

 

What I don't see is the evidence you have for 141 HB and the Field Ambulance.  His medal card doesn't have his unit as you said in an earlier post and do you have his own discharge papers - I see nothing on line.  Where does "records on Longlongtrail put him in the 138th but all his records show......" (your quote) come from?

 

Max

 

 

 

Hi Max attatched is what ive got to go on 

Just now, Derek Tickner said:

Hi Max attatched is what ive got to go on 

 

[MaxD]

No doubt that the unit from which he was discharged was 141 Heavy Battery.  The sheet from Forces War records is the transcript of his Silver War Badge record that is reproduced in an earlier post by Chris, the remainder is general knowledge relating to his medal entitlement.

 

As has been said already, a later transfer from 38 HB is quite normal.  This could  even have been before he went overseas.

 

Examples:

291 290575 38 HB later 47 Coy RGA

293 290577 38 HB later 44 Coy RGA

302 290585 38 HB later No 6 Hampshire Fire Command

 

As you have remarked before, although the context wasn't quite right, 60% of Great War service records were lost to bombing in WW2 and the survival of what you have is typical.  

 

Max 

[kevinrowlinson]

Derek,

 

From the records you have you can say he was a member of 141st (East Ham) Heavy Battery from some time before Aug. 1918 when he was wounded. When, or how, he was transferred to that unit is impossible to say without further records. 

 

Additionally his discharge certificate indicates he first enlisted into the RFA and, together with a number of other gunners, was transferred to 38 HB. It was probably from 119 Brigade RFA around July 1915.

 

When was his birthday? From Feb. 1915 the authorities were getting increasingly vigilant about sending soldiers overseas until they achieved the correct age if they found out.

 

Actually the number block included two units, but the other one would only muddy the water even more as it went to East Africa.

 

Kevin

[Derek Tickner]

22 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

Derek,

 

From the records you have you can say he was a member of 141st (East Ham) Heavy Battery from some time before Aug. 1918 when he was wounded. When, or how, he was transferred to that unit is impossible to say without further records. 

 

Additionally his discharge certificate indicates he first enlisted into the RFA and, together with a number of other gunners, was transferred to 38 HB. It was probably from 119 Brigade RFA around July 1915.

 

When was his birthday? From Feb. 1915 the authorities were getting increasingly vigilant about sending soldiers overseas until they achieved the correct age if they found out.

 

Actually the number block included two units, but the other one would only muddy the water even more as it went to East Africa.

 

Kevin

Hi Kevin his birthday was actually 25/1/1898 which made him just over 17,but to join up he put 1896.

As you can see on his discharge papers he was in nearly 4 years minus training however long that was,i believe what ive read that training was subsequently shorter as the war progressed due to the high casualty rate,but non the less he would have been in a few campaigns prior to his injury.

[KONDOA]

s Check for a second medal card. Transferred from RFA or was a TA prior. Maybe a 3 or 4 digit number out there somewhere.