please help george black royal scots k i a

[weshallremember]

good evening 

looking for help with details on 202535 george black killed in action#

with 1st/4th royal scots 27/8/1918 ???

his medal card has 2 numbers 202535 and 28762 i think it says 1st royal scots ???

but has in france date as 11th august 1915

which does'nt make sense with the battalion entry in france

any help appreciated see attached

 thanks

trevor

WO-372-2-163533.pdf

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

My Reading of TNA MIC is that the letter G precedes Royal Scots suggesting he saw overseas with 1st Garrison Battalion Royal Scots but that doesn’t tie in with 11th August 1915 arrival in France as 1st G B first went to the island of Mudros in October 1915 - per Long Long Trail.

I’d suggest you might to want to have a look at the actual medal roll to try and clear up the anomaly. 
 

Good Luck

 

Steve

 

PS 

 

If you amend your topic title to include Royal Scots you may more luck in attracting a Regimental specialist.

[weshallremember]

good evening 

looking for help with details on 202535 george black killed in action#

with 1st/4th royal scots 27/8/1918 ???

his medal card has 2 numbers 202535 and 28762 i think it says 1st royal scots ???

but has in france date as 11th august 1915

which does'nt make sense with the battalion entry in france

any help appreciated see attached

 thanks

trevor

WO-372-2-163533.pdf

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

It looks like 1/(G) Royal Scots on the card, and yes, 11/8/15

 

[ajsmith]

In the 1914-15 Star Medal Rolls for his battalion he appears to be the only one who has a disembarkation date of 11/8/1915 in France there are a few others with the same date of disembarkation but with a code 3 (Egyptian Theatre) or 2B (Balkan Theatre, Gallipoli etc.). I think it must be a typo. I also noted that SDGW has him serving previously as S/8093 Gordon Highlanders I don't know what to make of that!

[weshallremember]

2 hours ago, tullybrone said:

strange when he was killed in france 

 

[weshallremember]

if thats the 1st garrison scots guards

they were never in france where he was killed ????

[ajsmith]

He was serving with the 1/4th Battalion at the time of his death. They had been sent to France in April 1918. 

BTW this thread seems to have been posted twice.

[david murdoch]

On his medal roll there are a number of them showing 1st Garrison Royal Scots then 1/4th Royal Scots. Separate 1915 Star roll is to 1st (Garr) Btn. The Royal Scots and there are a  number with date of entry 11/8/1915 but many24/10 and 25/10/1915. more 

with 1/4th wen he died. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/32185/black,-/

 

From the Long Long Trail.

1st Garrison Battalion
Formed at Edinburgh in August 1915. Moved to Stobs in October 1915 but sailed from Devonport for Mudros on 24 October. By January 1916 was in Egypt. Moved to Cyprus on 7 April 1917.

 

1/4th Battalion (Queen’s Edinburgh Rifles)
August 1914 : in Forrest Hill, Edinburgh. Part of Lothian Brigade, Scottish Coast Defences.
24 April 1915 : transferred to 156th (Scottish Rifles) Brigade, 52nd (Lowland) Division.
Sailed from Liverpool 24 May 1915, going via Egypt to Gallipoli 14 June 1915.
Returned to Egypt 8 January 1916.
Moved to France, landing at Marseilles, 17 April 1918.

[FROGSMILE]

Very likely combed out of the Garrison Battalion into 1/4th while both were in Egypt.  From 1916 onward the Army was constantly looking for men who were fit enough to qualify for frontline infantry service.  In the case of the TF, many men who before conscription signed up for voluntary service under TF Terms and Conditions, and did not opt for Imperial Service, were sent to 2nd and then 3rd line battalions.  Once universal service conditions applied, after the military service act entered the statute book, they could be and were combed out for TF units sent to operational theatres of war.

Edited 1 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[weshallremember]

good morning

 

weird this guy i found out enlisted as george mckimmie

 in 1904 under age.

but was found out

then again in 1905 this time not found out 

but was discharged in 1911 for mis conduct

then re enlisted under his middle name black

the search goes on

thanks

trevor

[tullybrone]

14 hours ago, weshallremember said:

 

Sorry I don’t understand your post.

[tullybrone]

14 hours ago, ajsmith said:

He was serving with the 1/4th Battalion at the time of his death. They had been sent to France in April 1918. 

BTW this thread seems to have been posted twice.

I think OP has created a duplicate topic including Royal Scots in the title rather than amending the title of this one as I suggested.

[Lost in Tilloy]

Hi Trevor

 

There is a pension card for George Ancestry [via Fold3] that lists him as Pte 2023535 George Black, Royal Scots, the son of Catherine McKimmie  of 130 Alexander Street Dundee. Also on the card are two brother who also died: Pte 8423 James McKimme, Seaforth Highlanders, KIA 26/04/1915, and Pte 772 William McKimmie, Black Watch, KIA 09/05/1915. 

 

I looked up some Dundee papers online and there are a number of articles about the McKimme family as it appears Catherine had seven sons serving [Dundee Courier 18/09/1914] and she was living at 20 Ellen Street, Dundee, at that time. George is listed in that article as serving in the Black Watch. His name then appears in an article in the Dundee Evening Telegraph [10/06/1915] when his brother James is missing and the article states George was serving in the 1st Gordon Highlanders. He next appears in an article when William was killed [Dundee Courier 21/03/1916] and it states there that George was serving with the Royal Garrison Artillery [could this be a mistake by the paper, might the regiment be Royal Scots (Garrison) battalion at this point?] A photo of him then appears in the Dundee People's Journal [07/12/1918], but it just says "Pte G McKimmie, 20 North Ellen Street, killed."

All bit confusing!

regards

LIT

Edited 2 June , 2020 by Lost in Tilloy

[weshallremember]

i was told before he was formally s/8093 gordon highlanders but no proof ????

there is also a link to black watch in 1905      3288 george mckimmie 

yes all very confusing

[Lost in Tilloy]

The S/8093 Gordon Highlanders connection comes from his entry on the Scottish National War Memorial website.

Regards

LIT

[weshallremember]

so

he was in the 1st gordon highlanders 14 August 1914 : landed at Boulogne

then

 

1st garrison royal scots Formed at Edinburgh in August 1915.  Moved to Hawick in October 1915 and then to Mudros, and Helles, in the Dardanelles.  Moved to Egypt in February 1916

then

 

1st.4th royal scots which arrived in france april 1918 Mobilised in Edinburgh in August 1914. Moved to Gallipoli in June 1915. Transferred to Egypt in January 1916 and served there, and in Palestine, until April 1918. Served on the Western Front from April 1918 until the end of the war

 

with the medal card date as well makes no sense.

so he  could have been in the 1st garrison royal scots moved to dardanelles ?

then moved to 1st/4th royal scots in april to arrive in france?

no idea about gordon highlanders ?

needle in a haystack comes to mind

 

 

 

[clk]

Hi Trevor,

 

35 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

no idea about gordon highlanders ?

 

If it helps his S/8093 Gordon Highlanders number seems to date to December 1914.

 

S/8083 McLellan - attested 15.12.1914. Posted 9th Bn 18.12.1914

S/8087 Reid - attested 8.12.1914. Posted 10th Bn 18.12.1914

S/8088 McHardy - attested 14.12.1914. Posted 9th Bn 18.12.1914

S/8093

S/8096 Boyle - attested 12.12.1914. Posted 10th Bn 18.12.1914

S/8098 Paterson  - attested 14.12.1914. Posted 10th Bn 18.12.1914

 

Regards

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Going to a Garrison battalion from the Gordon’s suggests he was medically downgraded for a while, either from being wounded, or being weakened in some way by sickness and not quite back to full fitness.  This was relatively common for Garrison battalion soldiers, who were generally of a lower grade physically.  However, with a good diet and regular activity men could often regain their strength, and during periodic combing out via medical boards they would be sent to an infantry base depot (IBD) for final toughening up and then posted in a reinforcement draft to whichever unit needed battle casualty replacements at the time.  
 

This toing and froing was a constant process and as fast as men were posted out of garrison grade units other, recovering, or permanent low grade men were posted in to replace them.  The infantry and other large corps like the artillery were in constant need of men after 1916-17 battles of attrition and so there was this constant churn of manpower.  It became quite usual for those men who had engaged on non-regular Army, or non Territorial Force terms and conditions (who were the significant majority), to move between several regiments during their service.

 

It seems to me that his likely service was as follows:

 

1.  Joined under-age in 1904 under false details, claimed by parents and discharged, followed by several further re-enlistments until discharged again in 1911.

 

2.  Joined as a Kitchener Volunteer in Dec 1914 - to a Service Battalion of the Gordon Highlanders.

 

3.  Wounded/sick and after recovery, medically boarded and sent to Garrison Battalion Royal Scots and embarked for Egypt.

 

4.  Combed out when fit and sent to a TF Battalion of the Royal Scots after General Service principles were introduced in 1916.

 

5.  TF Battalion Royal Scots sent from Egypt to France and Flanders to reinforce significantly depleted infantry there following massive German offensive of March 1918.  
 

6.  Killed in action during subsequent ‘100-Days’ counter offensive that commenced in August 1918.

Edited 3 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[weshallremember]

wow

 

sounds so plausible

 

many thanks

trevor 

 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

wow

 

sounds so plausible

 

many thanks

trevor 

 

Like so very many men he was unlucky, having nearly made it all the way through the war, but he would have died with his mates, in an institution that he knew very well.  So be comforted by that.

Edited 3 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

9 hours ago, weshallremember said:

so

he was in the 1st gordon highlanders 14 August 1914 : landed at Boulogne

then

 

1st garrison royal scots Formed at Edinburgh in August 1915.  Moved to Hawick in October 1915 and then to Mudros, and Helles, in the Dardanelles.  Moved to Egypt in February 1916

then

 

1st.4th royal scots which arrived in france april 1918 Mobilised in Edinburgh in August 1914. Moved to Gallipoli in June 1915. Transferred to Egypt in January 1916 and served there, and in Palestine, until April 1918. Served on the Western Front from April 1918 until the end of the war

 

with the medal card date as well makes no sense.

so he  could have been in the 1st garrison royal scots moved to dardanelles ?

then moved to 1st/4th royal scots in april to arrive in france?

no idea about gordon highlanders ?

needle in a haystack comes to mind

 

 

 

The 15 Star Medal Card is in alphabetical order rather than numerical service number order. This is for 1st Garrison Battalion and where all his medal entitlement stems from.  Looking at this the vast majority  in his block are embarking 24/10/1915 or 25/10/1915 to theatre 3 ( Egypt) The following block embarking 9/11/1915 to theatre 2b Gallipoli and Aegean Islands.

There are a few oddball dates and Black's theatre of entry being 1 is probably an error.

• 1 Western Europe
• 2 Balkan Theatre
  a) Greek Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria
  b ) Gallipoli and Aegean Islands
• 3 Egyptian Theatre

[weshallremember]

thanks to everyone for all the help

 

i guess we will never know for sure

if he was actually with the gordons in service

or when he joined the 1st/4th royal scots

where he was before his death in france

[clk]

Hi,

 

A near-ish service number, Thomas Park (previously A&SH) transferred to the 1st Garrison Bn and was renumbered to 28724 in August 1915

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

The Embarkation Officer (Mudros) diary for November 1915 (link) shows:

 

 

Looking at the diary for February 1916, it shows...

Images sourced from Ancestry

 

Looking On his medal roll record page there is a 28695 Boyd with the same 'disembarkment' date and theatre code.

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

However, his service file shows...

Image sourced from Ancestry

 

So (not uncommonly), it looks like the medal rolls 'disembarkation' dates for Boyd and George may be written up using the dates that they left the UK/'home service'.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 5 June , 2020 by clk

[clk]

Hi,

 

His 202535 Royal Scots number is consistent with the number block allocated to the line units of the 4th Bn Royal Scots under the general renumbering of the TF in 1917 - link. That number block would have have been used for men both in the 1/4 Bn (aka 1st line, 4th Bn), and 2/4 Bn (2nd line, 4th Bn - 4th Reserve Battalion). You can probably approximately the date of his service number by near number sampling:

 

202508 - 6.3.1917

202535

202557 - 22.3.1917

202558 - 22.3.1917

202559 - 22.3.1917

 

He wouldn't have been renumbered if he was posted from the 2/4 Bn to !/4 Bn, so what his number doesn't give us is a certainty of when his service with the 1/4 Bn commenced, and when his overseas service with them started. 

 

For the time of his death, the Battalion war diary is here.

 

Regards
Chris