Isaac Reece, aboard steam trawler Loch Ryan captured 1916, subsequently POW in Brandenburg camp.

[Nicola Reece]

15 minutes ago, MaxD said:

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/55552/698/6619/ is his ICRC record at Brandenburg dated 16 Oct 1916 having come from Dulmen on 4 October, captured 26 Sep 1916..

 

Max

Oh, wow - thank you!  I wouldn't have known where to look for this: I was searching the index cards in the 'main file of the entente civilians'. I see that the whole crew are on this list, together with others - they would all have moved from Dulmen to Brandenburg at the same time?

[charlie2]

19 minutes ago, MaxD said:

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/55552/698/6619/ is his ICRC record at Brandenburg dated 16 Oct 1916 having come from Dulmen on 4 October, captured 26 Sep 1916..

 

Max

Max,

I would be interested to know how and where you found the record.

Charlie2

[Nicola Reece]

28 minutes ago, JWK said:

A possible sighting of the "Loch Ryan" in the Dutch newspaper "Scheepvaart" ("Shipping") of 27th October 1916 :

 

 

 

 

Very interesting - thanks.  The gap between setting sail, then capture, then sighting. I guess that the reports in various British newspapers are direct translations from this.

[MaxD]

14 hours ago, Nicola Reece said:

they would all have moved from Dulmen to Brandenburg at the same time?

 

Seems so.  The heading of the whole list says "transferred from Dulmen 4 October".  This was obviously, as this is in Germany nearish to Dortmund,  an interim stop from wherever they were first landed in the last week of September.

 

14 hours ago, charlie2 said:

I would be interested to know how and where you found the record.

 

I cheated.  Followed your original FMP suggestion but differently.  Searched with name and with keyword prisoner that returned just one result obviously him.  Looking at the image the PA number could be seen.  I then go to the ICRC records with literally any random name in the military enter that PA number to get the original.

Don't ask me how it works, the record is a register rather than a card and civilians don't seem to have the option of a PA.  Unscientific perhaps and I don't know how you get to the original direct, 

 

Of note is that all (maybe wrong, haven't checked them all) the results that come up on FMP under military as you suggested are from National Archives documents under Board of Trade, Colonial Office or Foreign Office** and can be misleading.  Take FO 383/352 which has correspondence about all sorts of prisoner related subjects from which FMP have extracted List of incapacitated British POWs held in Bulgaria in the transcription of our chap.  Again, why limiting the search to the one keyword results in just one that isn't on the big list - quien sabe?

 

All good learning stuff.

 

Max

 

**PS the POW record is among them on checking

Edited 1 June , 2020 by MaxD
PS added

[Nicola Reece]

34 minutes ago, MaxD said:

 

Seems so.  The heading of the whole list says "transferred from Dulmen 4 October".  This was obviously, as this is in Germany nearish to Dortmund,  an interim stop from wherever they were first landed in the last week of September.

 

 

I cheated.  Followed your original FMP suggestion but differently.  Searched with name and with keyword prisoner that returned just one result obviously him.  Looking at the image the PA number could be seen.  I then go to the ICRC records with literally any random name in the military enter that PA number to get the original.

Don't ask me how it works, the record is a register rather than a card and civilians don't seem to have the option of a PA.  Unscientific perhaps and I don't know how you get to the original direct, 

 

Of note is that all (maybe wrong, haven't checked them all) the results that come up on FMP under military as you suggested are from National Archives documents under Board of Trade, Colonial Office or Foreign Office and can be misleading.  Take FO 383/352 which has correspondence about all sorts of prisoner related subjects from which FMP have extracted List of incapacitated British POWs held in Bulgaria in the transcription of our chap.  Again, why limiting the search to the one keyword results in just one that isn't on the big list - quien sabe?

 

All good learning stuff.

 

Max

Very creative.  I take my hat off to you!  Thank you very much indeed. Any equally creative ideas about sources for his repatriation? I know, I am pushing my luck. 

[johnboy]

This might be of interest

 

https://andrewsarchives.com/tag/dulmen-pow-camp-ww1/

[MaxD]

Nothing on repatriation in the NA documents.

 

Crew member Walter Kershaw returned home to Scarborough in the first week of December 1918.  Tragically, his wife 24 and son 3 both died of influenza in the week after his return.  Much reported in newspapers of Dec 1918. *(Source Findmypast)

 

You may find something in papers local to Isaac Reece?  

 

Max

[Nicola Reece]

6 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Nothing on repatriation in the NA documents.

 

Crew member Walter Kershaw returned home to Scarborough in the first week of December 1918.  Tragically, his wife 24 and son 3 both died of influenza in the week after his return.  Much reported in newspapers of Dec 1918. *(Source Findmypast)

 

You may find something in papers local to Isaac Reece?  

 

Max

I've trawled BNA for all 3 of the names I previously had (Isaac himself, Walter Kershaw and skipper R H Whittleton), but nothing.  I'll try the rest of the crew. Thank you.

 

35 minutes ago, johnboy said:

This might be of interest

 

https://andrewsarchives.com/tag/dulmen-pow-camp-ww1/

Thanks. Great photos. 

[johnboy]

Bit of info on the ship and her capture

 

http://www.aberdeenships.com/single.asp?searchFor=loch+ryan&index=101056

Edited 1 June , 2020 by johnboy

[charlie962]

16 hours ago, MaxD said:

 is his ICRC record at Brandenburg dated 16 Oct 1916 having come from Dulmen on 4 October, captured 26 Sep 1916..

 

Max

That's the one I linked in Post6 above  but clever to find it on ICRC.

Edited 1 June , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, MaxD said:

Crew member Walter Kershaw returned home to Scarborough in the first week of December 1918.  Tragically, his wife 24 and son 3 both died of influenza in the week after his return.  Much reported in newspapers of Dec 1918. *(Source Findmypast)

That is my post17 above !

 

Edited 1 June , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, MaxD said:

Don't ask me how it works, the record is a register rather than a card and civilians don't seem to have the option of a PA

That implies that there is a seperate card index at ICRC that they have not (yet) digitised ?

 

There are cards for those interned in Switzerland but what about Holland ?

Edited 1 June , 2020 by charlie962

[MaxD]

Sorry about the duplicate posts Charlie!  Will do better digesting earlier posts in future!

 

I'll perhaps try a query for the ICRC in Geneva.

 

Max

[charlie962]

If FindmyPast hadn't done their transcription bit we wouldn't even know the PA forms for these civilians exist. Do keep us posted on response.

Charlie

[JWK]

Some hear-say info from www.wrecksite.eu (No coordinates where she sank in 1917 unfortunately, so I'm afraid you can't dive her)

https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?139508

 

Quote

 

History

14/02/2010 Built as LOCH RYAN for W. R. Wetherley, Aberdeen;

Yard Number: 352;

Launch Date: 05/07/1901;

At time of capture vessel owned by J. T. Graham & Sons, Hartlepool;

On 28/09/1916 the LOCH RYAN was captured off the Tyne by U-64 and taken to Germany as a prize of war.

The Scarborough crew were made prisoners;

The LOCH RYAN was used, without being renamed, by the German Navy as an auxiliary.

Her designation was "Kriegshilfsschiff B”;

German records give her as sunk in the North Sea 21/2/1917 [Struck by a mine]

 

"According to information (handed down locally by word of mouth) the crew of the LOCH RYAN were taken to Berlin and paraded through the streets.

They were treat[ed] well by the German Navy but like pigs once in Germany.

The crew were interned as POW's at Dülmen, Germany.

The second mate was said to be Walter Kershaw of Scarborough and the Skipper was Richard Henry Whittleton of Hartlepool"

 

 

The hear-say info comes from "George Westwood. A well know Scarborough Maritime Historian. Many contributions to the Scarborough Maritime Heritage Centre" as per the website.

[charlie2]

On 01/06/2020 at 09:32, MaxD said:

I cheated

Thanks Max. As the document has a PA number the records are somewhere in the main file and not in the civilian section, which narrows things down a little!

Charlie

[MaxD]

Yes that's right.  The number only brings up the register though, no card which is the core of the question for ICRC.  The names(s) also don't ring any bells. There is a caveat on the ICRC which may be relevant:

 

Nevertheless, some imperfections remain in the indexing of certain lists, such as the references contained in the civilian internees' registers of the Central Powers, for example. These errors will be corrected as soon as our technical capabilities and resources become available.

 

Max

[charlie2]

There are quite a few imperfections in the database eg German soldiers captured by the Americans are filed under Austro-Hungary. It could well be that the majority of MN PoWs are similarly „hidden“ and are waiting to be discovered.

Charlie

[charlie962]

On 01/06/2020 at 14:44, MaxD said:

I'll perhaps try a query for the ICRC in Geneva.

We await reply with baited breath !

[Nicola Reece]

On 02/06/2020 at 19:46, charlie962 said:

We await reply with baited breath !

 Me too! Sorry - I didn't seem to get notified of these last few replies. I would love to know the outcome and thanks again, all of you,  for all of your help.

On 02/06/2020 at 19:42, charlie2 said:

There are quite a few imperfections in the database eg German soldiers captured by the Americans are filed under Austro-Hungary. It could well be that the majority of MN PoWs are similarly „hidden“ and are waiting to be discovered.

Charlie

Maybe I can find time to trawl the whole database.

 

On 01/06/2020 at 13:44, MaxD said:

Sorry about the duplicate posts Charlie!  Will do better digesting earlier posts in future!

 

I'll perhaps try a query for the ICRC in Geneva.

 

Max

Do let me know if you do, and what the outcome is!

[MaxD]

Sitrep - email sent 2 Jun querying why no index card etc to the contact button on the ICRC main site.  No reply as yet, not even an automated "your email is important to us and we are working night and day to ensure you never get a reply" (I made the last bit up!)

 

Max

 

[Nicola Reece]

1 hour ago, MaxD said:

Sitrep - email sent 2 Jun querying why no index card etc to the contact button on the ICRC main site.  No reply as yet, not even an automated "your email is important to us and we are working night and day to ensure you never get a reply" (I made the last bit up!)

 

Max

 

Thank you. I had to google sitrep - at first I thought you were reporting a throat infection!

 

[MaxD]

21 minutes ago, Nicola Reece said:

at first I thought you were reporting a throat infection!

 

 Typical military mind, if we are not talking in abbreviations we are throwing acronyms in every direction!

Max

[seaJane]

3 hours ago, MaxD said:

 Typical military mind, if we are not talking in abbreviations we are throwing acronyms in every direction!

Max

Acronym-Rich Service Environment

[Nicola Reece]

8 hours ago, MaxD said:

 Typical military mind, if we are not talking in abbreviations we are throwing acronyms in every direction!

Max

 

4 hours ago, seaJane said:

Acronym-Rich Service Environment

I do not have a military mind, but I do appreciate those in this group.