hcb lenthall

[lyndaf]

hi all and I hope everybody's well

 

i'm trying to find anything on my great uncle henry Charles boggett lenthall. he was in the army from 1895 until his death in  1918 at the battle of the lys. (buried at mendinghem) aged~ 38, leaving two boys and his widow emma.  he was in the Liverpool regiment and lived in Caterham, surrey.

 

 

any help would be appreciated.

 

many thanks

regards,

Lynda f

 

[charlie962]

Lynda,

I post here a link to your very old thread on this man which only got one reply. Hopefully we can do better this time withall the additional digitised data available.

I shall start looking

 

Charlie

 

First find is a Service Record on FindmyPast here  showing enlistment 1895 into the Lincolnshire Regt (service number 4380)  7yrs Colours 5 years Reserve. Discharged on completion 1907.  South Africa 1900-02, QSA and KSA medals.

 

He was born Reigate, Surrey

Edited 30 May , 2020 by charlie962

[DavidOwen]

His early service records survive. This is the link to FMP (probably on Ancestry too) link Discharged 1907 at end of engagement.

[PRC]

31 minutes ago, lyndaf said:

i'm trying to find anything on my great uncle henry Charles boggett lenthall. he was in the army from 1895 until his death in  1918

 

Henry Charles Boggett Lenthall did indeed enlist on the 26th September 1895 - but in the Lincolnshire Regiment. Born Reigate, Surrey, and stated to be 18 years and 2 months old he enlisted in London for a 12 year term of 7 years in the colours and five in the reserves. He left the colours for the reserves on the 7th September 1903, having seen two tours in South Africa, one during the Boer War. In 1907 his original commitment was up and there is nothing noted about him re-enlisting or enlisting in the Army Reserve B which would have extended his commitment to be mobilised in the event of war by another four years.

 

There is a surviving 4 page record in the WO97 series - his service number was 4380 - which is available on FindMyPast, Genes Reunited and probably Ancestry.

 

So I'm afraid I'm finding no evidence of him being continuously in the Army for the whole of that period. Part of the confusion may stem from his occupation on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, where the 32 year old Henry Lenthall, born Reigate, is shown working as a Canteen Steward in a Military Canteen - think something equivalent to the NAAFI. He is shown as the married head of the household at 127 Park Road, Caterham, Surrey. He lives there with his wife of 6 years, Emma, (aged 35, born Donnington, Lincolnshire) and their only child Edgar, (aged 4, born Boldon, Hampshire).

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Edit - just spotted David Owen has beaten me to it

Edited 30 May , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[charlie962]

formerly 122483 RGA (Royal Garrison Artillery)

The RGA number was issued c 28/9/1916

 

Charlie

[sadbrewer]

His probate notice from Ancestry.

[PRC]

His Medal Index Card only shows an entitlement to the British War Medal and the Victory Medal so did not enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.

 

I see Soldiers Died in the great War records him as Died of Wounds, although it only has his name as Herbert Lenthall and shows him as born and resident Caterham.

CWGC has him as H C B Lenthall.

His Medal index card has him as "Hy" C B Lenthall, which the National Archive have catalogued as Henry C B Lenthall.

 

I'm fairly sure that its the same man as the pre-war Lincolnshire Regiment soldier but would be good to confirm.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

Yet another poor sod who made it through the war, combed out from RGA to infantry, and then cops it during the Kaiserschlact.  It would be really interesting from a statistical viewpoint to know how many others followed a similar path in terms of movement to and fro between arms and services and then losing their lives at the end.

Edited 30 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[BarbaraG]

Pension Record Card gives details for widow  Emma born 04 April 1871

Edgar Harry born 29 July 1906 and Frank William born 22 October 1911

 

His MIC only gives Victory / British Medal Refs. 

[BarbaraG]

10 minutes ago, BarbaraG said:

Pension Record Card gives details for widow  Emma born 04 April 1871

Edgar Harry born 29 July 1906 and Frank William born 22 October 1911

 

His MIC only gives Victory / British Medal Refs. 

 

 

[MaxD]

A horrendous day for, among many others, 4 King's (Liverpool) whose casualties amounted to 20 officers and 469 other ranks between 15 and 18 April 1918 which, in anyone's terms, is effectively the fighting strength of the battalion.

 

Max

[charlie962]

I cannot quite determine if he was transferred to KLR 1/2/1918 or possibly even beginning of April 1918 (ie just before his death)

 

Charlie

 

edit- or even end Dec 1917 ! inconclusive but it gives an idea of quarter.

Edited 30 May , 2020 by charlie962

[lyndaf]

thanks for all of your help

Yes, hy lenthall did indeed have two periods of war and have 2 sons, so he could have re-enlisted because of ffamily commitments- ie for money. during 1900-1914 there was in fact a shortage of jobs and a hard recession.  There was in fact nothing., hense the huge numbers of people enlisting in 1914.  

as the war progressed there was a need for more and more men hense 1916 national call up, and like others he was passed to other battalions, simply to stop the need.

What I wanted to know is whether he died of wounds or Spanish flu in 1918?

 

Many thank for your help and I'll check info!

 

regards, lyndaf

 

 

 

 

[MaxD]

The Register of Soldiers' Effects has died of wounds.  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60506/images/42511_6129999_0125-00170?backurl=h

 

Max

Edited 30 May , 2020 by MaxD

[lyndaf]

many thanks

 

grannie ethel, his sister  married my grandpa 23rd march.  I have a photo of her taken in june 1918.  I also wanted to know whether he was taken to hospital or ann advanced dressing post.

 

many thanks 

lyndaf

 

[MaxD]

It is normal, but by no means universal, that if a man died in a field ambulance,  a casualty clearing station or a hospital for that place to be recorded in the effects register.  Simply "died of wounds" is convetionally taken as dying before he could be evacuated any further back than perhaps the Regimental Aid Post.  In an action which claimed 469 other rank casualties in three days, (2829 in the division on the 15th alone) the chances are that he died at the front or very near to the front line.  The battalion were effectively almost wiped out by ferocious attacks on 17 and 18 April particularly.

 

There is no evidence that he was treated at a medical unit behind the line and on balance, he almost certainly wasn't.

 

Max

[Colin W Taylor]

Lynda,

 

If it helps I transcribed this account from an officer (Second Lieutenant Marrion, the Lewis gun officer) of the same battalion from a day or two before which gives an idea of the nature of the fighting. The battalion was in the line near Meteren trying to hold back the German offensive. He left the following account:

 

‘On April 16^th 1918 at 7am the Germans succeeded in taking the positions of A, C and D Coys of the battalion frontage. About 30 men were all that could be gathered together of these three companies and they were placed under the command of Lieut Pack who was D Coy commander. Late the evening of the 16^th I was sent across to Lieut Pack and was engaged in explaining the position to some French infantry who had come to reinforce us. I got back [to] headquarters in the early morning of the 17^th and during the day we were joined by 2^nd Lieut Fraser who had been captured the previous day but had escaped. Captain Warburton who was commanding the battalion in the line came across during the afternoon to inform us that we were being relieved the evening of the 17^th and I was to go across to a party of New Zealanders and RE’s who were holding the line on the left and inform them of the relief. I went out about 3 minutes later and found the headquarters already surrounded by the enemy. We held them off for about half an hour but there were only two signallers, Lieutenant D H Pack, 2 Lieut Fraser and myself. The fate of 2^nd Lieut Fraser I have never been sure of but I know he was hit in the head and fell close to me. Lieut Pack and myself were taken prisoner.’[1]

 

This was part of some heavy and confused fighting. It would be difficult to determine when he was mortally wounded but likely on the 15th-17th April.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

 

---

[1] J F Marrion officer file, TNA, WO339/XX.

[MaxD]

That's a very helpful addition Colin.

 

Max

 

PS  The battalion war diary can be downloaded from the National Archives free at: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353841

 

Edited 1 June , 2020 by MaxD
PS added

[lyndaf]

many thanks.all

 

 

 

looks like there was ferocious fighting around that time.

 

I just wanted to know about which division he was in so I could think about how he died if poss.

 

regards

Lynda f

[Colin W Taylor]

Lynda,

 

He was serving with 4th Battalion King's Liverpool Regiment who were part of 98th Brigade, 33 Division in 1918.  I'd recommend a read of the battalion war diary which Max has shared a link to above.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

[lyndaf]

many thanks.

 

I've had a quick look at it and will really look into it at a later date.  I've also looked at a list of the soldiers that were wounded in 1915-nothing about Henry there.

but it looks as though there was a quick transfer of numbers from another battalion to this regiment,like the RN

[MaxD]

13 hours ago, lyndaf said:

I've also looked at a list of the soldiers that were wounded in 1915-nothing about Henry there.

but it looks as though there was a quick transfer of numbers from another battalion to this regiment,like the RN

 

He didn't enter France until after the beginning of 1916 (from his medal card  and RGA service number - Peter post #4 and Charlie post #5) transferring perhaps in Dec 1917/ Feb 1918 (Charlie post #12).

 

Not sure what you are reading with like the RN??

 

Max

[lyndaf]

rn means royal navy- some were put into specific royal navy army regiments as there were a high number of men and not enough ships. 

 

hope this clarifies this.

 

and hope you are ok

 

many thanks lyndaf

[MaxD]

Thank you, all OK so far.

 

I am totally familiar with the 63rd Royal Naval Division, I didn't follow your phrase about quick transfer of numbers

On 07/06/2020 at 10:16, MaxD said:

quick transfer of numbers from another battalion to this regiment,like the RN

 

Shouldn't think it makes any difference to the discussion though.

 

Max

[lyndaf]

hi everyone and hope everyone's ok

 

i wanted to know what happened to his widow and children? did they have a rough time afterwards? many thanks for your help lyndaf