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CasseRae

Not recorded pf CWGC

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CasseRae

Looking for further evidence of Pte Frederick Harris 14372
8th Royal Berkshire Regiment who died Sept 26 1915 and is remembered

on the Ploegsteert Memorial, Arrondissement de Mouscron, Hainaut, Belgium.

On Ancestry.co.uk on UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929

Frederick Harris GenderMale Death Date25/09/1915 Death Place Mesogastrium

Rank Private Regiment Princess Charlotte of Wales's (Royal Berkshire) Regiment Regimental Number 5448.

He is also not shown on Forces War Records. 

 

Many thanks for any help with this,

 

 

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CasseRae

Very many thanks especially because of my error. I must go back to the original information. I have it now.

Egg on face!

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Matlock1418
34 minutes ago, CasseRae said:

Very many thanks especially because of my error. I must go back to the original information. I have it now.

Egg on face!

Don't beat yourself up - is easily done, and for several reasons.

And ... CWGC don't always have it right - not saying they are wrong or 'dissing' them in any way but it has been known for there to be some variation.

And especially amongst many other documents.

I note his Pension Card on WFA/Fold3 has a Cause and Date of death KiA 13.10.15  !!!

Good luck with your research.

:-) M

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CasseRae
Posted (edited)

Very many thanks especially because of my error. I must go back to the original information. I have it now.

Egg on face!

How do I access Fold 3 please?  Ok thanks I am in Fold3

 

Edited by CasseRae

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)

Fold3 is part of Ancestry - you may need a separate paid subscription for full access [beyond 'normal' Ancestry paid subscription]

- but I also think there is a basic / free option to see Pension Records and MIC if you register for it with them

[BIG disclaimer = please carefully check I have got this right - and unless you want to go the paying route avoid the paying subscription links!] https://www.fold3.com/register.php

Alternatively a Western Front Association paid subscription [with other added benefits too] gives access to pension records http://www.westernfrontassociation.com

Edited by Matlock1418
addition

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CasseRae

Many thanks for the help, I have now a trial subscription, but I shall use this information if I need this again for another soldier. Thanks you very much.

Actually I was hoping to find a cause of death but cannot see one, unless it is shown in 'Army code'.;-))

Quote

I note his Pension Card on WFA/Fold3 has a Cause and Date of death KiA 13.10.15  !!!

 

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Michelle Young

I’m not sure what the place of death is all about -mesogastrium sounds more like a medical problem. He would have been killed somewhere around the Vermelles-Hulluch road area as part of the attack on the opening day of the battle of Loos. Where did you get the information from, as the place of commemoration is also incorrect in your post. 
Michelle 

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Matlock1418

 

3 minutes ago, CasseRae said:

Actually I was hoping to find a cause of death but cannot see one, unless it is shown in 'Army code'.;-))

Not that I can see any other 'code' for cause on the PC either - pension admins stuff but not other - Just "Killed in Action"

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CasseRae said:

Death Place Mesogastrium

 

7 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

mesogastrium sounds more like a medical problem

Certainly a web search sends you to that place - of body! - Was that where his wound was???

 

Loos seems a better location for death given he is commemorated on the Loos Memorial -a s A McM indicated in post #2 and as Michelle in #8

Edited by Matlock1418
addit

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CasseRae

Hi Michelle, I agree it is a medical problem. I cannot find a like place, and it will probably be a mis-transcription on Ancestry,co.uk

 

Ploegsteert Memorial, Arrondissement de Mouscron, Hainaut, Belgium.  Do you mean this? Believe that too came from ancestry. 

 

Thanks Michelle.

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Michelle Young

Yes, I don’t use any pay per view sites, but I believe there’s a bit of a track record of errors with a certain site.....

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Yes, I don’t use any pay per view sites, but I believe there’s a bit of a track record of errors with a certain site..

Likewise I use free sites only

Edited by Matlock1418

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PRC

Apologies if I've missed it but I don't see any reference to his entry in Soldiers Died in the Great War.

 

Private 14372 Frederick Harris was Killed in Action on the 25th September 1915 whilst serving in France & Flanders with the 8th Battalion, Princess Charlotte of Wales's (Royal Berkshire Regiment). He was born and resident Hinton Waldrist, Berkshire and enlisted Abingdon, Berkshire.

 

His Medal Index Card and the 1914/15 Star Roll shows he first landed in France on the 7th August 1915 - and also notes he was "KinA". The Long, Long Trail shows the following for the 8th Battalion:-

Formed at Reading in September 1914 as part of K3 and attached as Army Troops to 26th Division. Moved to Salisbury Plain and returned to billets in Reading in November 1914. Went on to Sutton Veny in May 1915.
8 August 1915 : left Division and landed at Le Havre. Transferred to 1st Brigade in 1st Division.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/princess-charlotte-of-waless-royal-berkshire-regiment/

I sometimes find with a days discrepancy like that you'll find that 8th was the first day the Battalion paraded in full and were formally taken on the strength of the B.E.F.

 

As he has no known grave then Killed in Action is likely to be the best you will get. A local paper article based on information received from one of his mates may have more but that is probably about it.

 

As he was probably initially recorded as missing unless one of his platoon\company could account for him, it's always worth checking out the International Committee of the Red Cross website to see if they received a missing person enquiry. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/

Unfortunately nothing obvious for Frederick.

 

The War Diary of his Battalion is currently free to download from the National Archive if you register an account with them. I believe this is the one you would need:-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351895

 

However if you don't want to go down that route the basic war diary, (but not the appendices \ Maps, etc), has been transcribed here.

https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/research/war-diaries

 

Their entry for the 8th Battalion for the 25th September 1915 reads:-

5:50AM. The intensive Bombardment, preparatory to the attack on the German position SOUTH of the HULLOCH ROAD, began, the enemy's artillery at once replying, though they inflicted little damage and caused few casualties in our front-line trenches. Simultaneously with the bombardment, the gad company began to operate the gas cylinders which were in the front-line trench, and there then occurred several casualties from poisoning, caused it supposed, by leakages in the cylinders. 6:28AM. The gas now ceased, and smoke bombs were thrown from the front-line trenches, proving entirely successful in screening our Advance. 6:30AM. The fire of our artillery lifted, and Battalion advanced in quick time, to assault the first line Enemy Trenches, the 10th Gloucester Regt being on the right, the 2nd Gordons on the left. The advance was opposed by heavy artillery and machine-gun fire, while the wire in front of the German trenches was found to be scarcely damaged, and it was in cutting a way through this obstacle that most of the regiment's heavy casualties occurred. Shrapnel and machine-gun combined to play havoc in our ranks, and an additional disaster was the blowing back of our gas, by the wind, into our own ranks. However, after a struggle, the German first line was penetrated, and the trench found to be practically deserted, the enemy apparently, having deserted it earlier in the day, merely leaving behind sufficient men to work the machine-guns. Mainly overland, but with some men working up the communication trench, our line advanced successively to the 2nd and 3rd German lines, and met with but slight opposition. From the 3rd line a further advance was made, and an Enemy Field Gun captured. A 4th line German trench was also seized, but being in so incomplete a state that it afforded little cover from rifle fire and none whatever from shrapnel. COLONEL WALTON ordered the line to be withdrawn to the 3rd German line trench, and this position was occupied until the Battalion was relieved. 10:0PM. COLONEL WALTON was ordered by the Regimental Medical Officer to leave the trenches for medical attention, as he was suffering from the effects of gas-poisoning, and the command of the Battalion passed, for the night, into the hand of 2nd Lieut T.B. LAWRENCE. 6:30PM circa. The following is a report by Lieut C. GENTRY-BIRCH:- "At this point (i.e. when the Battalion was negotiating in German wire) about 50 of the 8th R. Berks R became separated from the remainder of the Battalion and attached themselves to the Gordons advancing and taking the German guns in the 4th line German trench. They then advanced and occupied the road WEST of HULLUCH. We were unable to advance further owing to our artillery fire, which was falling short. We waited for support to come up, in the meantime starting to dig ourselves in." 3:30PM "At 3.30PM the Germans counter-attacked, driving in our flanks and as the support had not yet arrived we were compelled to retire, holding a position about 100 yds WEST of the road. The Berks numbers were reduced to about half. On receiving news that the supports were coming up we again advanced to the road which we proceeded to place in a state of defense." 11:30PM. "At 11.30PM the Germans again counter-attacked in large numbers driving in our right flank. We retired to the position we had before held in the afternoon. The Germans continued to push the counter-attack. Our support line then opened fire and we were caught between the two fires. We then made our way as well as possible to our supporting line (the German 4th line). Only 6 of the Berkshires returned safely. The Germans continued to push the counter-attack, but suffered heavily and were driven back. C. GENTRY-BIRCH LT."

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

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sadbrewer

His Brother Herbert was also killed, 27/7/16, service number 17979, Berkshire Regiment.

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sadbrewer

From The Faringdon Advertiser, November 6th, 1915.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive. 

 

 

Screenshot_20200529-202135.jpg

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I note his Pension Card on WFA/Fold3 has a Cause and Date of death KiA 13.10.15

And here is that PC

1633257782_HARRISFrederick14372.png.83c957fc23c12b56f23b79e4d8fb089c.png

Image courtesy of Western Front Association/Fold3

 

2 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

From The Faringdon Advertiser, November 6th, 1915.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive. 

 

Screenshot_20200529-202135.jpg

 

Don't you just love it when you get a different date from CWGC!

 

I however note that CWGC do also have a HARRIS, Cpl. Frederick G/60 6th Bn the Buffs 13 Oct 1915 also on the Loos memorial https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1764796/harris,-frederick

 

Oh joy!  Have we got a couple of 100 year old PC and press mixed errors?

Or ???

 

Makes you think you need to be prepared to look at various dates in WDs etc.

You may perhaps yet find something very interesting - who knows?

Edited by Matlock1418

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Discrepancy in age also between PC and press cutting.

The man with the PC was 19 and 11 months.

The man in the press cutting was 'in his 27th year'

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Discrepancy in age also between PC and press cutting.

The man with the PC was 19 and 11 months.

The man in the press cutting was 'in his 27th year'

Good spot.

But same town.

What a wicked web we are weaving.

What do we know about the other Frederick Harris G/60? = well at least - MIC matches CWGC with a 13/10/15 date of death KiA - doesn't seem to be your man but perhaps a source of confusion for others

Edited by Matlock1418
addit

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
On 29/05/2020 at 17:31, CasseRae said:

Looking for further evidence of Pte Frederick Harris 14372
8th Royal Berkshire Regiment who died Sept 26 1915 and is remembered

on the Ploegsteert Memorial, Arrondissement de Mouscron, Hainaut, Belgium.

On Ancestry.co.uk on UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929

Frederick Harris GenderMale Death Date25/09/1915 Death Place Mesogastrium

Rank Private Regiment Princess Charlotte of Wales's (Royal Berkshire) Regiment Regimental Number 5448.

He is also not shown on Forces War Records.

There appear to be quite a few Frederick Harris in the Berkshire Regiment MIC - think I spotted, well several, more than just two - at least 14 at last look.

And two with a 25 September 1915 date of death

 

There is quite a discrepancy between the MIC of landing in F&F theatre

14372 7-8-15 with 8 R Berks

and

5448 20/9/14 with 1 R Berks

 

5448 is however commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial with a 25 September 1915 death - 2 R Berks, much older (38) and completely different parental details etc. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/870844/harris,-frederick

 

Think there may perhaps be a need to do some untangling of your findings so you don't go off at a peculiar tangent following 5448 - Take care!

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
italics

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CasseRae
  • Thank you all for the outstanding help you have given me – way beyond anything I had expected. I cannot thank you enough. What a helpful, knowledgeable group you are!

     

    Thanks for the sorting out of the two men I had mixed up Matlock1418. Regarding these two separate soldiers named Frederick Harris – what an error!  I had wondered why his service number had changed from 5448 to 14372 – not having the knowledge to query further I simply thought it had been updated for some reason.  In fact I am looking for information on Frederick 14372 of Hinton Waldrist whose parents I have as Robert and Elizabeth Harris, and not as it turns out Frederick 5448 who was of St Clement’s, Oxford!!

     

    This Frederick of Hinton had two brothers in this war of them Herbert and Frederick who were killed.

     

    Thank you all very much.

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Matlock1418
1 hour ago, CasseRae said:

Thank you all for the outstanding help you have given me

All in a day's work for GWF pals! - every day a school day!! [and not just for you!!!]

 

BTW, Re: Herbert Harris 17979 - now you have access to Fold3 you will also find a Pension Card for him too - being older he was married - you will find with his widow and children's names etc..

Good luck.

:-) M

 

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CasseRae
13 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

All in a day's work for GWF pals! - every day a school day!! [and not just for you!!!]

 

BTW, Re: Herbert Harris 17979 - now you have access to Fold3 you will also find a Pension Card for him too - being older he was married - you will find with his widow and children's names etc..

Good luck.

:-) M

 

Many thanks, Matlock1418

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CasseRae
14 hours ago, CasseRae said:

This Frederick of Hinton had two brothers in this war of them Herbert and Frederick who were killed.

 

Error again - this time a typo - This Frederick of Hinton had two brothers in this war Herbert and Robert. Herbert was also killed.

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Matlock1418
Posted (edited)
On 29/05/2020 at 22:32, Matlock1418 said:
On 29/05/2020 at 18:18, Matlock1418 said:

I note his Pension Card on WFA/Fold3 has a Cause and Date of death KiA 13.10.15

And here is that PC

1633257782_HARRISFrederick14372.png.83c957fc23c12b56f23b79e4d8fb089c.png

Image courtesy of Western Front Association/Fold3

 

On 29/05/2020 at 20:23, sadbrewer said:

From The Faringdon Advertiser, November 6th, 1915.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive. 

 

Screenshot_20200529-202135.jpg

 

Don't you just love it when you get a different date from CWGC!

 

I however note that CWGC do also have a HARRIS, Cpl. Frederick G/60 6th Bn the Buffs 13 Oct 1915 also on the Loos memorial https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1764796/harris,-frederick

 

Oh joy!  Have we got a couple of 100 year old PC and press mixed errors?

Or ???

 

Makes you think you need to be prepared to look at various dates in WDs etc.

You may perhaps yet find something very interesting - who knows?

 

I am now really intrigued that your man Frederick Harris of Hinton has a namesake on the Loos Memorial and by their respective dates of death as recorded by CWGC

  • Pte Frederick Harris 14372 Royal Berkshire [date of death recorded by CWGC = 25/09/1915]

and

  •  Cpl Frederick Harris G/60 The Buffs (Royal East Kent) [date of death recorded by CWGC = 13/10/1915]

You apparently have access to the Ancestry main site/records [which I do not - I normally use my local  library for access but it is locked down at present] - Would probably be worth you looking to see if there are any any Service Records and Registers of Soldier's Effects and the like for both men, and to evaluate, looking for details of death especially.

 

= Would be very interesting to know what is available and to compare.  You may be able to enlighten us.

 

As for 8RBR their War Diary for the period is currently available for free download from TNA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351895 

[Edit: Apologies PRC - you had already identified this WD in your earlier post = gold star goes to you first] 

You may wish to acquire and read for background.

25 Sept was a 'busy' day, as was 13 Oct 1915 too [Edit: as the 13th also was for The Buffs]

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
acknowledged PRC had found WD first.

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