Tim Hill Posted 29 May , 2020 Share Posted 29 May , 2020 Hi All I have been researching the stories of the men who are named on the War Memorial in the village where I live (Newton St Loe, near Bath) - there are 10 men listed and I have been able to put together a reasonable narrative for most of them. There are two though for whom I am struggling to find just an approximate date of enlistment, and I wonder if any Forum members may be able to assist. The men in question are - 25788 Pte. Joseph Marks, 8th Bn Somerset LI, killed at the Battle of Arleux 28/04/1917. 49700 Gnr. William Wilfred Morgan, S Battery, Royal Horse Artillery, served in Mesopotamia but died of Dysentery in Bangalore in September 1915. I really know very little about Pte. Mark's service - he was a Worcestershire man but I know that he was in this area by the start of 1913, that he enlisted here, and that he was awarded the two standard service medals so he did not go into active service during the early part of the war - that is about all I know in terms of timing. Gnr. Morgan however was a pre-war soldier - he is shown on the S Battery section of the 1911 Census when they were based in Ambala so he must have been enlisted for some time by then. I did find an article about RHA numbers here on the Forum but the number being discussed was 48963 - some way from Gnr Morgan's and it went back as far as 1907 so that is quite a big window in time and I have no feel for how quickly the numbers would have incremented at that time. I see from the records on Ancestry that he enlisted in Bath - he originated from Shropshire and I don't know when the family moved here, so some rough idea of his date of enlistment would also help to narrow down the timeframe in which they came here! Any advice would be greatly appreciated Kind regards Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 29 May , 2020 Share Posted 29 May , 2020 The war gratuity can give you an idea when run through my calculator - accurate to within the month (which is as accurate as the war gratuity can be - it was only paid for war time service). Using FindmyPast or Ancestry to look at nearby service numbers in conjunction with the war gratuity can tie down service in 99% of cases. Mesopotamian deaths give us an additional check in most cases as they (almost uniquely) list the service gratuity paid as a separate amount so can sometimes give an idea of pre-war service (in a small number of cases). Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hill Posted 29 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2020 Thanks for coming back on this Craig - that is something that I wasn't really aware of. I have the Effects documents for both men so I will register to use the calculator and check them out. This will be very useful second check for other men too where I have only some approximated dates. I appreciate your help! Kind regards Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 29 May , 2020 Share Posted 29 May , 2020 17 minutes ago, Tim Hill said: Thanks for coming back on this Craig - that is something that I wasn't really aware of. I have the Effects documents for both men so I will register to use the calculator and check them out. This will be very useful second check for other men too where I have only some approximated dates. I appreciate your help! Kind regards Tim Where can really helps is to determine if there's any service prior to the numbers you know - if the war gratuity shows a longer period then you know there's almost certainly extra service (SDGW often shows any earlier number). Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 29 May , 2020 Share Posted 29 May , 2020 Hi Tim, 2 hours ago, Tim Hill said: 25788 Pte. Joseph Marks, 8th Bn Somerset LI, killed at the Battle of Arleux 28/04/1917. He may have enlisted earlier, but papers show that: 25743 Nation - mobilised from the Army Reserve 30.5.1916 25766 Lewis - mobilised from the Army Reserve 31.5.1916 25774 Marks - mobilised from the Army Reserve 1.6.1916 25788 25814 Blackmore - mobilised from the Army Reserve 2.6.1916 Fold3 have a pension index card which shows: Image sourced from Fold3 It looks like the marriage of Joseph and Evelina (Kingdon) was registered in Q1 1912 (RD St. Germans, 5c 55) Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hill Posted 29 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2020 Thanks to both of you for coming back. Craig - I have registered with the Gratuity site and that gave me a date after the end of April 1916 for Joseph, which allowing the tolerance of a month fits pretty closely to what Chris has just sent. With the two approaches giving answers that are so close, clearly we are looking at the end of May/beginning of June 1916 - that's a result as far as I am concerned! Still working on Gnr Morgan but it is looking like 1908 as a likely enlistment date. Appreciate the help from both of you! Kind regards Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 29 May , 2020 Share Posted 29 May , 2020 2 minutes ago, Tim Hill said: Thanks to both of you for coming back. Craig - I have registered with the Gratuity site and that gave me a date after the end of April 1916 for Joseph, which allowing the tolerance of a month fits pretty closely to what Chris has just sent. With the two approaches giving answers that are so close, clearly we are looking at the end of May/beginning of June 1916 - that's a result as far as I am concerned! Still working on Gnr Morgan but it is looking like 1908 as a likely enlistment date. Appreciate the help from both of you! Kind regards Tim Glad to help ! Any issues let me know. There are some odd cases that still need to be manually checked (blame the clerks interpretation of the instructions) where the figure might appear to be slightly out. Having spent dozens of hours writing and testing the calculator I decided some cases were 'too far out there' to be realistically done with the patience I had left. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 30 May , 2020 Share Posted 30 May , 2020 22 hours ago, Tim Hill said: Gnr. Morgan however was a pre-war soldier - he is shown on the S Battery section of the 1911 Census when they were based in Ambala so he must have been enlisted for some time by then. I did find an article about RHA numbers here on the Forum but the number being discussed was 48963 - some way from Gnr Morgan's and it went back as far as 1907 so that is quite a big window in time and I have no feel for how quickly the numbers would have incremented at that time. I see from the records on Ancestry that he enlisted in Bath - he originated from Shropshire and I don't know when the family moved here, so some rough idea of his date of enlistment would also help to narrow down the timeframe in which they came here! 49689 James Cave attested Brighton and was posted 20/1/08 RHA Depot on a 6/6 basis 49693 Charles Alfred Williams attested Stratford and posted 22/1/08 RHA Depot on a 6/6 Basis 49700 William Wilfred Morgan .......... 49703 Wilfred Garrod attested Ipswich and posted 27/2/08 RHA Depot 6/6 basis 49712 William Thos Berry attested Woolwich and posted 5/3/08 RHA Depot on a 6/6 basis WW Morgan will have been with S Battery when they left India (Bangalore) for Mesopotamia actually disembarking Basra on 24th Feb 1915 (his MIC says 5a 23/2/15). Into action early March they formed part of 6th Indian Cavalry Bde which were part of the IEF D that were so successful in 1915 under General Townshend before it all went a bridge tomb (Ctesiphon) too far. As the temperature mounted from May onwards sickness amongst men and horses increased and was the principle cause of casualties. In the 4 months to August the Battery suffered 5 men died and 24 invalided to India; In September alone 14 men were invalided to India. I guess Morgan would have been one of those sent in August/early Sept. The journey back to India took about a week. War Diary S Battery is here at DNA and currently free to download. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hill Posted 30 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2020 Hi Charlie This ties Gnr. Morgan's enlistment date down much more closely than I had ever expected to be able to do. I have the war diary for his unit and for the 6th Indian Cavalry Brigade which I am slowly working though at the moment to gain an understanding of the activities there - all of my previous family history research, and that for men on the village War Memorial, has related to the Western Front and to Infantry, MGC or RFC men so I am still very much finding my way with both 'Mespot' and Artillery records. I was not totally naive as to the conditions in Mesopotamia before I started looking at Gnr. Morgan in more detail, but the more I read.... Your input is very much appreciated - thank you Kind regards Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 30 May , 2020 Share Posted 30 May , 2020 9 hours ago, Sad Act said: Novice question coming up: Why the three payments here? Do these indicate previous service? I believe this soldier also served previously as 34081 in the Worcestershire Regiment. Top is service gratuity (usually not shown separately - it's primarily a quirk of deaths in the Mesopotamian theatre). Middle is unpaid wages etc Bottom, in red, is the war gratuity. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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