Questions regarding captured weapons report

[assafx]

Hello,

I have just read a short report, prior to the third battle of gaza, in which there is a short summary of equipment captured from the Ottomans.

it mentions "75mm Q.F mortar gun". my usual go to when it comes to 75mm Q.F is the Krupp M1903 canon, used by the Ottomans.

Since it mentions mortar gun, could it be the 7.58 Minewerfer? or are there other 7.5mm mortars?

 

another question, in this case purely terminology, when the text mentions :

"Guns, Shot, Single, Barrel. - 3"

"Guns, Shot, Double, Barrel. - 1"

 

it means that 3 single barrel shot guns and one double shotgun were taken, right?

 

Thank you,

Assaf

 

Edited 27 May , 2020 by assafx

[assafx]

one more question,

two other reports mention capture 4.5" Krupp guns.

1.

 

2.

 

i could not find 4.5" Krupp gun (which is 114.3mm).

 

Any ideas?

 

Thank you,

Assaf

Edited 27 May , 2020 by assafx

[Chasemuseum]

Regards the Krupp 4.5inch gun, this is a British report so they are probably being a bit rough and ready with the nomenclature and are likely to be referring to a 12cm gun. The Turks had three 12cm field guns and howitzers:

1.    1873 purchase from Krupp of 120 field guns 12cm L24. Sliding breach, recoil carriage.

 

2.    1893, purchase 72 field howitzers from Krupp, 12cm L/11.6. Sliding breach, recoil carriage. The Turkish state armoury latter built 100 of these under license.

 

3.   1902 purchase of 7 field guns 12cm L/40 Krupp built SK with the "ring" breach type C/00.

 

c73 12cm L24 Field gun. 

 

c93 12cm field howitzer - this example from the Turkish State arsenal, at Macarthur Park, Camden, NSW Australia.

 

I do not have a copy of the L40 on file.

 

Hope this helps, 

cheers

Ross

[Chasemuseum]

Another example of the c93 12cm howitzer, this one in rural NSW at the town of Manilla

 

Cheers

Ross

[assafx]

Thank you Ross, that was very helpful,

After failing to find 4.5" Krupp gun, I was thinking about 12cm too and your explanation makes complete sense.

I found this image from around Gaza: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205330587

which might be c73 or c80 ( I think Herbert Jager calls it M1882 or am i wrong?).

 

I never knew about the C93 (btw wonderful tugra on the Manilla example) or the 1902 purchase.

Where can i find a book to use as a reference?

 

Assaf

 

 

[Chasemuseum]

With the 7.5cm QF mortar gun, this will not be a 76mm Leichte Minen Werfer as these would not be considered a "QF" gun, they muzzle load with a pre rifled round and the charge is in the base of the shell. They have 4 different charges and you unscrew the disc at the base of the round to remove or add charges. For QF, this is a fixed round case and shell with no variation on charge. 

 

At Bundaberg, Queensland there is an Austrian 75mm high angle mountain gun that was captured in Palestine. This may be the type gun in question, although this is not technically a QF gun as the shell and case are loaded separately through the breech, with the option of 4 charges. However most mortars and high angle howitzers use multiple chargers.

 

7.5cm Skoda Gebirgskanone M15, (mountain gun) Developed to replace a number of older 7cm mountain guns in service with the Austro-Hungarian army (K.u.K). The gun can elevate to 50 degrees from horizontal. Development was quite prolonged because of vacillations about the specification of the gun and it finally entered production in 1915. In common with most mountain guns it was designed to be broken down into portable sections, in the case of the M.15 six loads. The Skoda gun proved to be quite successful and was not only used by the Austro-Hungarian Army but also by the Bulgarian and Turkish Armies. The Ottoman Army received 144 M.15 guns during WW1. The German Army also purchased the M.15 for use as an infantry support gun but it was less successful in this role since the Germans tried to use it as an anti-tank gun and also towed the gun rather than dismantling it for transport as intended. 

7.5cm Skoda Gebirgskanone M15, Bundaberg Queensland. The tractor tyres and steel wheels are entirely wrong, they have been added at some time to do up the gun. It would normally be fitted with a shield

 

An example in modern Jordan

 

 

Australian War Memorial photo of a captured gun in typical configuration.

 

 

 

[Chasemuseum]

1 hour ago, assafx said:

Where can i find a book to use as a reference?

 

 

My references are various tables of data from the internet. I wish I had a good book on Turkish WW1 artillery.

 

Just the variations of the standard 75mm QF field gun make life difficult, there were a number of minor variations based on the year of delivery then Germany delivered both captured and seized Krupp contract guns - Italy, Romania & Brazil. Again these have minor variations. THe Romanian guns have beautiful King Carlos crests on the top of the barrel. There are quite a lot of captured Turkish trophy guns surviving in Australia and it is quite an interesting subject. 

 

Added to this, a lot of the capture records are very poor, and every local community with a gun seams convinced that it was captured at Gallipoli and in general arguing the point is a waste of breath

 

Cheers

Ross

[assafx]

if its a 75mm gun than why writing a mortar?

i think that the answer might be in the definision of Q.F.

if its a rate of fire the mortar might fit right in.

if its a cannon, with breach loading and modern recoil than it might be oneof the 75mm guns.

 

my apologies for theshort reply i'm on the road.

 

Assaf

 

[Chasemuseum]

One of the drawbacks of English as a language are the variations of definitions applied by different users. The obvious difference is between UK and American “English”, but similarly between “common” and “technical” usage.

 

 

Considering the technical language of the British artilleryman of the Great War, artillery is classed by several features (I will not list them all):

-        Angle of flight – soft definitions not rigidly defined.

·       Field gun from depression slightly below horizontal to about +20 degrees, pre-war logic, primarily used for direct fire but with a limited indirect fire capability (during the war field guns were mainly used for indirect fire).

·       Howitzer  from about +15 degrees to about +45 degrees, to deliver plunging indirect fire.

·       Mortar from about +30 degrees to about +70 degrees, to deliver plunging indirect fire.

-        Breach loading ammunition type BL or QF - hard definitions only applied to breach loading weapons

·         Breach loading, projectile and propellant cartridge loaded separately. The cartridge may be caseless with the breach sealed by an obturating pad such as with the 15pr and 60pr field guns or it may be sealed with a brass cartridge case like the 4.5-inch howitzer.

·         Quick firing projectile and brass cartridge case are pre-assembled unit like an infantryman’s rifle cartridge.

-        Recoil carriage / recuperator system / other recoil management system. The British did not normally give any clear designation of this when describing weapons.

 

 

The problem with such definitions are the application. The large calibre guns of the British Army like the 9.2-inch, 12-inch & 15-inch howitzers could be argued as being mortars rather than howitzers. Although British mortars of the Great War were predominantly muzzle loading, mortars could be breach loading and the USA had been keen on very heavy breach loading mortars for coastal forts.

 

 

I would suggest that the author of the capture report described the weapon as “75mm QF mortar gun" because

-        when it was captured it was found set to a high angle that he associated with a "mortar".

-        QF because it was breach loading and had a recuperator system rather than a "recoil carriage". Noting that this was a technically incorrect application of QF when BL would have been correct.

 

 

The 7.5cm m15 Skoda Gebirgskanone, which can be elevated up to +50 degrees appears the only likely gun. Turkey did use other 7.5cm mountain guns:

-      Delivered in 1893, 6x Krupp L/13  - recoil carriage gun,

-      State arsenal  450x L/13 (not confirmed but thought to be  copy of the 1893 Krupp L/14 recoil carriage guns,

-      Delivered in 1903, 2x Krupp L/6.4 - (recuperator carriage gun)

-      Delivered in 1904. 8x Krupp L/14 - recuperator carriage gun,

-      Delivered in 1905. 138x Krupp L/14 - recuperator carriage gun,

-      State arsenal   16x L/14 copy of the Krupp L/14

-    During WW1 16x m1914 Rheinmetall L/16  - recuperator carriage gun

-    During WW1  m1913 Krupp L/14  - recuperator carriage gun, quantity delivered unknown but gun only produced in small numbers (73)

 

 

I discounted the m1893 L/13 recoil carriage guns because of the QF descriptor, the m1904 L/14 guns as these to have a maximum elevation of +25 degrees, the  m1914 Rheinmetall as these have a maximum elevation of +38 degrees and the m1913 Krupp as these have a maximum elevation of +30 degrees (alternate reference +26 degrees).

 

Cheers

Ross

 

no photo on my file for the m1903 Krupp or m1914 Rheinmetall

 

 

75mm m1893 L/13 recoil carriage mountain gun manufactured by the State arsenal, at the Northfort Museum, Manly, Sydney, Australia. This museum is now closed and the collection transferred to the Australian Army History Unit, Corps of Artillery collection which is held in storage (in shipping containers) at Puckapunyal in Victoria pending the building of the Corps museum. The collection has been in storage for several years, there is no funding allocated to the museum at present and funding is unlikely to occur in the immediate future. 

 

m1904 75mm L/14 Krupp mountain gun in Turkey at Cannakale. There was an example as a trophy gun at Hughendon in Queenlsand, 25 years ago it was on display at the Australian Army base museum in Townsville, Queensland. that museum has been consolidated into the Australian Army Jasine Barracks Museum at Townsville, however it is not currently on display and staff at the museum when I visited where unaware whether they had acquired the gun or not. - Current location unknown - possibly destroyed.

 

7.5cm m1913 L/14 Krupp mountain gun at Corrigan, Western Australia, at the RSL lookout. 1913 contract for Chile, with stock seized and placed into additional production for the German Army during the war, this example built 1917.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 May , 2020 by Chasemuseum
speliing errors

[assafx]

Ross,

Thank you for your detailed reply.

I was able to find the definishon for Q.F on line.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick-firing_gun

 

the main problem,in the mortar case, is that it needs to be breach loading. so this leave us with 7.5mm Howitzer as you suggested. There is an historical image of K.U.K skoda 7.5mm, in action at Gaza. i have the image at home.

 

Thank you,

Assaf

[1st AIF]

I was wondering if someone can help. I have purchased a 75mm Skoda artillery piece. Apparently is was captured in Palestine in WW1 by the Australian Light Horse. After the war it was presented to the city of Hobart. Thereafter it was disposed of to a private collection. I was wondering if the provenance of the gun can be traced? The Australian offical history of WW1 specifically mentions the capture of mountain guns in various battles but not the type of gun. Its serial number is 768. 

The background guns in the B&W image (Wikipedia) seem to include Skodas.

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi, forum member @CharlieBris is the man for this although I notice he hasn't posted for 4 years.  Somewhere I've got a copy of the document I'm pretty sure he compiled or updated, This was a list of every large captured piece, known as Billet's Allocated Guns and Mortars or similar.

Worth checking through this member's postings as he covered a lot of ground and was very helpful.

Update:  Just reading the Tasmanian list Charlie sent me in 2011:

Someone seems to have the wrong serial.  I enlarged your image and it looks to me like 768 as you posted.  The list of Hobart (3) and Hobart Museum (2) trophies have quite a bit of detail except for your artillery piece, sadly.  It simply says serial 708 is a 7.5cm gun captured by the ALH.  Nothing else.  Others have the unit, date and location captured.

[AndyBsk]

There was some artillery Austrian ugrian units in contingment to Palestina, i assume they weapons remained in Turkey post 1918. GebirgsKanone L15-  Mountain Gun M15,cal. 7,5cm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoda_75_mm_Model_15

Edited 4 July , 2022 by AndyBsk

[t.ryan]

Was looking through this older post and noticed the name Krupp gun.

A few years back on a trip north, we called in at the town of Barcaldine Qld. where I spotted these 2 guns, one being a Krupp and as usual of anything military, I took a couple of photos.

Thought I would add them to the above list of known guns.

Cheers,

TR 

[assafx]

On 27/01/2023 at 00:35, t.ryan said:

Was looking through this older post and noticed the name Krupp gun.

A few years back on a trip north, we called in at the town of Barcaldine Qld. where I spotted these 2 guns, one being a Krupp and as usual of anything military, I took a couple of photos.

Thought I would add them to the above list of known guns.

Cheers,

TR

Thank you,

The question was about a 75mm mortar and not a gun, which puzzled me.

 

Assaf